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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > General BMW News and Cars Discussion > 12 FWD BMW and MINI Models Approved, Out of Up to 20 Proposed Models



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      11-27-2012, 07:06 AM   #45
Efthreeoh
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Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
Quite the opposite.
No one can afford to stand still and growth is more important than relying on standing still in established segments and markets.
BMW is not market centric we are global company which caters to the global market.

As I have said numerous times before there is a strategy and the Active Tourer concept confirms this strategy that both MINI and BMW can co-exist in the compact segment, The Active Tourer is possibly not coming to the US because it will not be shown at this weeks LA Autoshow.
BMW have today confirmed that a LWB Active Tourer is considered for the Chinese market since the 5er Li and the latest 3er Li which is outselling Audi's A4L by a considerable margin.

In the auto industry you have to have the ability to identify the trends in the market and where the markets are heading and then plan your strategy accordingly. Today the markets are favouring compact cars , SUV in all sizes and status and crossovers. This is what manufacturers have to work to - what is important to the customer and what is important to the demands of the market.

A recent report regarding the European crisis failed to include BMW's strong european demand for the MINI models, 1er , X1 , 3er , 3er Touring ,X3 and 5er models.

Specific markets cater for more luxury for example so BMW are looking at further options.
Take as an example (but not the only example) BMW's largest market China. They have just anounced another increase, a significant increase over last year that our China projections have now been altered with a new three year plan for increased luxury models.

Also I was recently in India where BMW are also experiencing rapid growth as is Brazil . These markets will demand smaller concepts and the FWD family is the perfect model for continuous growth.

BMW is a different kind of car company we do not think like the others we express our values differently. BMW's main competitor is Mercedes-Benz who also express their values differently.
We stress that individuality in every car and that is why we are number 1.

There is serious interest (which can be registered on the main site about the Active Tourer concept) which so far has many enquiries.
The car was well received by both public and the media and the finished model is not much different, 90% of the concept is in the production car.

The Active Tourer showed the beginning of BMW's journey.
Having seen the first cars that are incoming against competitors and even its MINI sibling. The designers and engineers have fulfilled the brief. Not only do they stand out in appearance but the engineers sought to make the best handling FWD cars , those who have driven the cars claim the next MINI and BMW's Urbanic city car outdrive and outsteer the equivalent Audi A1.


Everybody has an opinion and are allowed to express that opinion.
Nevertheless , I hope you enjoy your Caddy , Audi etc.
So, a bit of history. Back in the 1980's when BMW really became popular, the trend of the auto industry was to small, compact, front drive cars. Japan already had such models, and so did Audi and VW. The American manufacturers all jumped on the bandwagon with the likes of the Escort, Tempo, Citation, etc. In fact almost every model in the U.S. line up was a new FWD chassis, or conversion of existing nameplates to FWD.

At this same time in the 80's BMW never even considered a FWD car. I was there, following the auto industry as I do today (w/o the benefit of the internet) and nowhere do I remember BMW even throwing a FWD concept car into the mix.

The truth here is this, BMW has become mainstream. Most other companies have caught up to BMW in handling and braking (at the level most people drive on the street) and BMW has nowhere else to go but into the compact FWD market. BMW cars are over engineered, expensive, and have nowhere near the build quality or reliability of mainstream FWD such as a Honda or Toyota product, even some of the US domestics too.

So stop trying to spin this into BMW “thinks differently than any other manufacturer”. They did 30 years ago, but not now.

It sounds like to me BMW is just now catching up to the rest of the world auto industry. In the US, when FWD BMWs become common place as Focuses, Civics, Yaris, then the brand will have lost its image. BMW is the US is primarily a badge-whore market, for people who would do just fine in a FWD Buick.

If you think BMW is number 1 in the world, then they must pass out good smoking materials at lunch time.
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      11-27-2012, 09:24 AM   #46
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Most other companies have caught up to BMW in handling and braking (at the level most people drive on the street) and BMW has nowhere else to go but into the compact FWD market.

...

So stop trying to spin this into BMW “thinks differently than any other manufacturer”. They did 30 years ago, but not now.
This is such a silly argument. If we're setting limits at the way "most people" drive on the street, then there is no reason to buy anything up line of a Corolla S. And that's exactly the point. BMW continues to build cars that drive great beyond the way most people drive on the street.

The apprehension about BMW losing focus is understandable with this number of changes, but focus is defined as the central point of attention. BMW will continue to make more RWD drive models than they do FWD models. They are expanding their M line-up, which means more sales and more money for BMW Motorsport. Arguably, this makes them more focused on the things that matter to enthusiasts, even with the addition of FWD models (there are plenty of enthusiasts who drive FWD cars, btw). There is no getting around the fact that FWD packaging makes cars more affordable and more usable on a daily basis. I owned several GTIs, and I put my MkV GTI within 8/10ths of my 135i. Delivering an enthusiast focused FWD platform to the market is a brilliant move for BMW, because it will bring more driver-focused customers to the brand earlier in their buying cycle, simply because they can afford it.

As to BMW's current direction, I have not read a single automotive journalist (with any credibility) who has panned the new BMW models (F30 and F10). To the contrary, they all say they're spectacular, with the possible exception of the move to electric assist steering.

All this talk about losing focus and failing as a company is nothing but chicken little bullshit. The sky is falling, the sky is falling! Meanwhile, the next M3 is promised to be lighter and more focused than the last, and we're going to get a successor to the 1M, just like we asked for.

Give it a rest and wait for the product before you deliver the eulogy.
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      11-27-2012, 10:34 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
So I guess all that stuff about 50/50 weight balance for great driving dynamics and safety BMW has been touting for the past 45 years or so was all just a bunch of f'ing bullshit. I wonder where they'll put the Battery now.

Hey BMW, if you want to become mainstream like GM, Toyota, Ford, et.al., then start selling cars that are LESS EXPENSIVE and cheaper to repair (and don't have $1,200 waterpump replacement costs).

Cadillac here I come.
Awesome! Thank you sir.

Pretty much true. They speak what's convenient at the time.
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      11-28-2012, 05:43 AM   #48
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Pretty much true. They speak what's convenient at the time.
I think it has more to do with traction/stability control having pretty much alleviated the need for a balanced car...
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      11-28-2012, 06:07 AM   #49
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This is such a silly argument. If we're setting limits at the way "most people" drive on the street, then there is no reason to buy anything up line of a Corolla S. And that's exactly the point. BMW continues to build cars that drive great beyond the way most people drive on the street.

The apprehension about BMW losing focus is understandable with this number of changes, but focus is defined as the central point of attention. BMW will continue to make more RWD drive models than they do FWD models. They are expanding their M line-up, which means more sales and more money for BMW Motorsport. Arguably, this makes them more focused on the things that matter to enthusiasts, even with the addition of FWD models (there are plenty of enthusiasts who drive FWD cars, btw). There is no getting around the fact that FWD packaging makes cars more affordable and more usable on a daily basis. I owned several GTIs, and I put my MkV GTI within 8/10ths of my 135i. Delivering an enthusiast focused FWD platform to the market is a brilliant move for BMW, because it will bring more driver-focused customers to the brand earlier in their buying cycle, simply because they can afford it.

As to BMW's current direction, I have not read a single automotive journalist (with any credibility) who has panned the new BMW models (F30 and F10). To the contrary, they all say they're spectacular, with the possible exception of the move to electric assist steering.

All this talk about losing focus and failing as a company is nothing but chicken little bullshit. The sky is falling, the sky is falling! Meanwhile, the next M3 is promised to be lighter and more focused than the last, and we're going to get a successor to the 1M, just like we asked for.

Give it a rest and wait for the product before you deliver the eulogy.
I don't think it is a silly argument at all. Most buyers of BMW today couldn't care less about, weight distribution, drive-squat, brake-dive, suspension control, brake modulation, steering feedback, etc., all the things that BMW pioneered (maybe prioritized is a better word) in street cars. Most manufacturers match, or come close to matching, these once BMW-only attributes in a lot of their models. 95% of BMW buyers can't appreciate what still (hopefully) separates the BMW DNA, which is how the car behaves at 9/10ths and 10/10ths limits (my E90 still has it) and don't really need a BMW; and would do fine with other manufactures nameplates on the hood. BMW now caters to these buyers, which is not a bad thing, and in consideration of proper business practice, the right thing. But if that leaves us BMW aficionados relegated to buying far over-priced M models then I'll shop elsewhere. And if the M division needs to sell M-versions of overweight X5 and X6's then watch me leave, laughing out the door.

The poster I responded to tried to say BMW is a unique manufacturer that "thinks differently” than other auto manufacturers. Really, a FWD hatchback (or 4-door sedan) that drives well? Heck, there must be at least 5 or 6 models by other manufacturers on the road right now.

Just a few short years ago BMW touted this same mantra, that they were the only independent manufacturer left and didn’t have to compromise like other (mainstream) manufacturers by being forced to chassis-share between models. Now comes word that the 1-series and mini will share major chassis components. Right, BMW is different. Sorry, I’m not buying it. Having a naturally aspirated, in-line 6, rear wheel drive sedan with a manual transmission, now that’s thinking differently…
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      11-28-2012, 07:06 AM   #50
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I don't think it is a silly argument at all. Most buyers of BMW today couldn't care less about, weight distribution, drive-squat, brake-dive, suspension control, brake modulation, steering feedback, etc., all the things that BMW pioneered (maybe prioritized is a better word) in street cars. Most manufacturers match, or come close to matching, these once BMW-only attributes in a lot of their models. 95% of BMW buyers can't appreciate what still (hopefully) separates the BMW DNA, which is how the car behaves at 9/10ths and 10/10ths limits (my E90 still has it) and don't really need a BMW; and would do fine with other manufactures nameplates on the hood. BMW now caters to these buyers, which is not a bad thing, and in consideration of proper business practice, the right thing. But if that leaves us BMW aficionados relegated to buying far over-priced M models then I'll shop elsewhere. And if the M division needs to sell M-versions of overweight X5 and X6's then watch me leave, laughing out the door.

The poster I responded to tried to say BMW is a unique manufacturer that "thinks differently” than other auto manufacturers. Really, a FWD hatchback (or 4-door sedan) that drives well? Heck, there must be at least 5 or 6 models by other manufacturers on the road right now.

Just a few short years ago BMW touted this same mantra, that they were the only independent manufacturer left and didn’t have to compromise like other (mainstream) manufacturers by being forced to chassis-share between models. Now comes word that the 1-series and mini will share major chassis components. Right, BMW is different. Sorry, I’m not buying it. Having a naturally aspirated, in-line 6, rear wheel drive sedan with a manual transmission, now that’s thinking differently…
Well put. In the e46 days, I shopped a number of cars and the 3er felt a huge step above the other players. Today the 3er doesn't lead by much if anything. I remember Clarkson making a comment about how Porsche ruined the steering on the 911 and that if it didn't steer well there was no point in getting one.

You simply cannot abandon those qualities that define a brand and differentiate. Otherwise the product becomes a commodity. Imagine Apple going to plastic laptops running Windows.
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      11-28-2012, 10:19 AM   #51
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I don't think it is a silly argument at all. Most buyers of BMW today couldn't care less about, weight distribution, drive-squat, brake-dive, suspension control, brake modulation, steering feedback, etc., all the things that BMW pioneered (maybe prioritized is a better word) in street cars. Most manufacturers match, or come close to matching, these once BMW-only attributes in a lot of their models. 95% of BMW buyers can't appreciate what still (hopefully) separates the BMW DNA, which is how the car behaves at 9/10ths and 10/10ths limits (my E90 still has it) and don't really need a BMW; and would do fine with other manufactures nameplates on the hood. BMW now caters to these buyers, which is not a bad thing, and in consideration of proper business practice, the right thing. But if that leaves us BMW aficionados relegated to buying far over-priced M models then I'll shop elsewhere. And if the M division needs to sell M-versions of overweight X5 and X6's then watch me leave, laughing out the door.

The poster I responded to tried to say BMW is a unique manufacturer that "thinks differently” than other auto manufacturers. Really, a FWD hatchback (or 4-door sedan) that drives well? Heck, there must be at least 5 or 6 models by other manufacturers on the road right now.

Just a few short years ago BMW touted this same mantra, that they were the only independent manufacturer left and didn’t have to compromise like other (mainstream) manufacturers by being forced to chassis-share between models. Now comes word that the 1-series and mini will share major chassis components. Right, BMW is different. Sorry, I’m not buying it. Having a naturally aspirated, in-line 6, rear wheel drive sedan with a manual transmission, now that’s thinking differently…
I think you kind of reinforced the argument that BMW "thinks different".

Quote:
Most manufacturers match, or come close to matching, these once BMW-only attributes in a lot of their models.
Yet BWM remains the benchmark used by all the major automotive journals. They're the target, because they continue to lead in their way of thinking. The "difference" is that they arrived at this design philosophy of their own volition, rather than chasing another manufacturer.

Quote:
The poster I responded to tried to say BMW is a unique manufacturer that "thinks differently” than other auto manufacturers. Really, a FWD hatchback (or 4-door sedan) that drives well? Heck, there must be at least 5 or 6 models by other manufacturers on the road right now.
We haven't seen the product yet, so we can't say what ways it will, or won't, be different from the competition. You said in your post, "what still (hopefully) separates the BMW DNA, which is how the car behaves at 9/10ths and 10/10ths limits." I think that really hits the nail on the head. If you look at the BWM trim lines in each range, you can find a car that's good for 7/10ths, 8/10ths, and 9/10ths driving. Because a car is FWD does not mean it's driving character can't be superlative for it's driveline type. That is what characterizes BMW: superlative driving character.

It's a matter of scope. BMW used to scope their models to a very specific formula, but if they want to survive as a company, they can't continue to do that. This is true for a multitude of reasons, not the least of which are environmental concerns. Manufacturers must maintain a minimum average fleet fuel economy in both the EU and the US. I'm sure other markets have these kinds of requirements as well, but the US and Europe are their primary markets. Simple physics dictate that FWD packaging provides more opportunity for reduced fuel consumption: it's lighter and has less drive line friction. This is the same driving factor that has caused the moved to forced induction. High revving, naturally aspirated engines are desirable for enthusiasts, but they're thirsty. Something has to give, so BMW does the best job they can building a driver-focused turbocharged engine.

By introducing (and selling lots of) FWD models, BMW is essentially "buying" fuel economy in a new segment. This pulls the average down and allows them to continue building driver-focused RWD automobiles for those of us who care about that sort of thing. It's a strategic decision on many fronts, and it's essential to their survival.
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      11-28-2012, 09:51 PM   #52
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That's the point, the only decent driving focused cars they make are the M's. An E46 with sport pack was pretty kick ass car, stiff and tough. Now sport lines are soft and lady like.

Oh well, no use crying about spilt milk.. Just move on I guess.
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