[Year's_End]

Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls

If more reviews are like this in favour of the C-Class, I have to start to believe that BMW really dropped the ball with the F30. It seems like everybody in this class has improved (IS, C-Class, A4 still TBD but I expect an improvement given Audi's recent track record) and even the ATS came out with a hit while BMW remained stagnant and in come cases even regressed from the E90.

Everybody has their opinion on what and how a BMW should feel like. If a BMW can only feel like a BMW when it's at the limit, that's a disappointment to me. Only having experience with various E46's and E90's, it didn't matter which trim you got, a 323i, 330i or 335i, you knew properly weighted steering, great feedback and a stiff yet compliant ride was a certainty. With the F30, it seems you have to do/add more to make it feel as it should.

Well done Mercedes. For luxury, Mercedes has everyone beat in this segment hands down and from the reviews, it seems like Mercedes has the F30 beat in steering. I never considered a C-Class because it lacked everything that mattered to me that the 3-Series delivered, I can't ignore the C-Class this time around.

Mercedes is playing their cards properly this time around. This is the C-Class achieving the role it should have from its inception in the early '90s. Instead of trying to beat BMW at its own game, MB went for overt luxury while providing a competent "sporting" experience to go along with it. BMW seems to positioning itself in an uncomfortable area of compromise; the F30 is trying to be everything to everyone. While the idea makes sense - and realistically, it will probably continue to be a formula for sales success - it gives us car buying enthusiasts a compromised product.

Another point to consider is that there's a much smaller gap in this class when it comes to quality, comfort, and driving capability compared to the last couple of generations. The E46 had the W203 to deal with, and that was not exactly a barnstormer or a luxurious car to begin with (and the B5/B6 A4... same story). There isn't a clear cut winner by playing the jack-of-all role anymore.

[Wolfinwolfsclothing]

Originally Posted by Crimson92

MBZ absolutely nailed it.

Blows the F30 out of the water IMO, can't wait for the AMG variant.

Absolutely.

I said in another thread, it seems as though BMW and Merc have switched roles/apporaches. Merc is the one producing the fast, great handling cars whereas BMW is just making fast oversteer happy burnout cars.

And as far as looks, BMW seems to be moving towards cheap, tacky looking cars whereas Mercedes look tasteful, refined aggression.

[tallshortguy]

Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing

Absolutely.

I said in another thread, it seems as though BMW and Merc have switched roles/apporaches. Merc is the one producing the fast, great handling cars whereas BMW is just making fast oversteer happy burnout cars.

I'm assuming you're not talking about the C-class since this review noted the new C is less sporty than it's predecessor with a greater focus on luxury. I'm assuming you also read the review.

[ybbiz34]

Originally Posted by tallshortguy

I'm assuming you're not talking about the C-class since this review noted the new C is less sporty than it's predecessor with a greater focus on luxury. I'm assuming you also read the review.

It's hard to say that the new C is "less sporty," considering that the C450 will have 367 horsepower and 406 lb-ft of torque . . . all while being 200+ lbs lighter than the last generation.

The C450 will be the fastest standard C-Class ever.

The W205 is currently the most aerodynamic mass-production road car.

[tallshortguy]

Originally Posted by ybbiz34

It's hard to say that the new C is "less sporty," considering that the C450 will have 367 horsepower and 406 lb-ft of torque . . . all while being 200+ lbs lighter than the last generation.

The C450 will be the fastest standard C-Class ever.

The W205 is currently the most aerodynamic mass-production road car.

Well I don't consider horsepower the biggest factor in sportiness, for example a miata or GT86 are very sporty but low powered cars. From what I've read in pre-release comparisons and previews, the new C is quite good but still a bit less sporty in terms of driving dynamics than the w204 (though probably faster thanks the new engines). Most have noted that they've focused less in some aspects on the sportiness of the car, thus why I disagree with his assessment that they've been focusing more on driving precision than previously.

Also, from what I read, the 200 lbs weight savings is the maximum configuration difference and a first drive I read said the C250 is approximately 100lbs lighter than the similarly equipped w204. Very commendable but like what other manufacturers have done (BMW included) the 200 lb claimed is not across the whole fleet and only represents the max difference they found between two configurations.

Like I said before, the w205 looks like a great car and I'm glad MB is focusing on what they do very well, however I don't agree with his statement seeing as it's not backed up by any actual previews/reviews.

[Year's_End]

Originally Posted by ybbiz34

It's hard to say that the new C is "less sporty," considering that the C450 will have 367 horsepower and 406 lb-ft of torque . . . all while being 200+ lbs lighter than the last generation.

The C450 will be the fastest standard C-Class ever.

The W205 is currently the most aerodynamic mass-production road car.

It looks to be far more capable, which might not translate into being as (or more) sporty than the W204. It'll be hard for them to topple your C63.

[Wolfinwolfsclothing]

Originally Posted by tallshortguy

I'm assuming you're not talking about the C-class since this review noted the new C is less sporty than it's predecessor with a greater focus on luxury. I'm assuming you also read the review.

You could make that case for the new 3/4 series as well.

[tallshortguy]

Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing

You could make that case for the new 3/4 series as well.

Yeah you could, the f30 is more luxury/DD focused than the e90 which I never said it isn't. It tries to be more of an all arounder, with focus on either luxury or sportiness based on the "lines" though both the w205 and f30 have superior chassis and overall platform to their predecessors. It's still focused on being a sports sedan though. As noted in the various reviews the new C-class has moved much further into luxury territory, so if you were speaking about the C class I'm not sure how it's MB focusing on more precise driving cars than BMW. That's not to say it's not a good driving car, just that it has less focus on sportiness than it's predecessor.

[fecurtis]

Probably good thing for BMW. Their due for a facelift soon and I'm sure they've been closely following what the competition is doing.

I'm sure we'll be seeing more cars like the M235i spread amongst the model range to tackle the trend luxury automakers are having at having a "in between" performance model to slot under their respective performance brand (AMG, RS, M, F, V, etc).

Wonder what the next gen C-Class coupe will look like....and if it'll actually be based on the C-Class this go around.

[Wolfinwolfsclothing]

Originally Posted by tallshortguy

Yeah you could, the f30 is more luxury/DD focused than the e90 which I never said it isn't. It tries to be more of an all arounder, with focus on either luxury or sportiness based on the "lines" though both the w205 and f30 have superior chassis and overall platform to their predecessors. It's still focused on being a sports sedan though. As noted in the various reviews the new C-class has moved much further into luxury territory, so if you were speaking about the C class I'm not sure how it's MB focusing on more precise driving cars than BMW. That's not to say it's not a good driving car, just that it has less focus on sportiness than it's predecessor.

I meant more in the AMG vs M classes. I feel as though we've seen a greater push for Merc to make better handling cars (C63 faster around the Ring than e9x m3 and better steering) and BMW pushing towards fast cars that are a bit numb and dont handle that well (M5 being beaten by the CLS63/S6). And Randy Pobst/MT saying the new M5/6 are the complete antithesis of what M once stood for.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing

I meant more in the AMG vs M classes. I feel as though we've seen a greater push for Merc to make better handling cars (C63 faster around the Ring than e9x m3 and better steering) and BMW pushing towards fast cars that are a bit numb and dont handle that well (M5 being beaten by the CLS63/S6). And Randy Pobst/MT saying the new M5/6 are the complete antithesis of what M once stood for.

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test

M6 Grand Coupe (the M5 doesn't compete with the CLS63) came in second beating the last place CLS63.

Also, the S6 can't hold a candle to a comparable M BMW (which would be an M5). You would be thinking of the RS6.

[Wolfinwolfsclothing]

Originally Posted by fecurtis

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test

M6 Grand Coupe (the M5 doesn't compete with the CLS63) came in second beating the last place CLS63.

Also, the S6 can't hold a candle to a comparable M BMW (which would be an M5). You would be thinking of the RS6.

I was referring to this review...and meant e63 amg

http://www.bmwblog.com/2012/07/22/cd...-2013-audi-s6/

M5 lost, badly, especially in the categories that count, powertrain, chasis, and fun to drive.

"So color us pissed that the M5 suffers shortfalls in three areas where an M usually excels: steering, suspension, and brakes. "

Also looks as if Audi is beating BMW again here seeing as the RS7 just beat the M6 gran coupe, and its 15K cheaper.

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...omparison-test

"The RS7 isn’t just the most fun on back roads and the most pragmatic four-seater, it’s also the best value. Audi hadn’t finalized option pricing as of this writing, but the RS7’s low base price suggests it should easily undercut the BMW and the Mercedes when all parties are equipped with those pricey carbon-ceramic brakes. Nevertheless, the Audi could be the most expensive car in this test and still walk away with a win. The fact that it owns the rational categories as well as the emotional ones makes victory for this four-seater that much more conclusive."

[HX_Guy]

Looks great overall but they really couldn't have done something better than a Garmin looking tacked on Nav screen? Really?

[EmPower]

Originally Posted by TheBingoBalls

If more reviews are like this in favour of the C-Class, I have to start to believe that BMW really dropped the ball with the F30. It seems like everybody in this class has improved (IS, C-Class, A4 still TBD but I expect an improvement given Audi's recent track record) and even the ATS came out with a hit while BMW remained stagnant and in come cases even regressed from the E90.

Everybody has their opinion on what and how a BMW should feel like. If a BMW can only feel like a BMW when it's at the limit, that's a disappointment to me. Only having experience with various E46's and E90's, it didn't matter which trim you got, a 323i, 330i or 335i, you knew properly weighted steering, great feedback and a stiff yet compliant ride was a certainty. With the F30, it seems you have to do/add more to make it feel as it should.

Well done Mercedes. For luxury, Mercedes has everyone beat in this segment hands down and from the reviews, it seems like Mercedes has the F30 beat in steering. I never considered a C-Class because it lacked everything that mattered to me that the 3-Series delivered, I can't ignore the C-Class this time around.

I went for the BMW Unforgettable event and the first car i drove was the C350 4matic coupe. The interior felt a lot more special than the 4 series, with its contrast stitching, red belts, suede on the seats and chunky steering wheel. The paddles also felt so much better.

Worst was that the interior of the 3/4 series feels like my 20K Jetta DD for a car that easily eclipses 60K. No bueno! My e92 335 felt so much more upmarket than this generation, plus drove like a go kart. This generation though more comfortable and great to drive, does not have that rabied dog reflexes I am looking for in a potential 3rd fun car to add to the stable. The wierd thing is though, I am leaning more and more towards the stingray; 911 C4S performance for a 335i sticker and looks to kill. Sounds like a no brainier to me.

[Year's_End]

Originally Posted by EmPower

I went for the BMW Unforgettable event and the first car i drove was the C350 4matic coupe. The interior felt a lot more special than the 4 series, with its contrast stitching, red belts, suede on the seats and chunky steering wheel. The paddles also felt so much better.

Worst was that the interior of the 3/4 series feels like my 20K Jetta DD for a car that easily eclipses 60K. No bueno! My e92 335 felt so much more upmarket than this generation, plus drove like a go kart. This generation though more comfortable and great to drive, does not have that rabied dog reflexes I am looking for in a potential 3rd fun car to add to the stable. The wierd thing is though, I am leaning more and more towards the stingray; 911 C4S performance for a 335i sticker and looks to kill. Sounds like a no brainier to me.

Did Mercedes recently change their paddles? I've never sampled a model of theirs with a decent setup (latest one I felt was a MY13 CLS). The metal felt nice and cold to the touch, but there is maybe 2mm of travel like tapping a button, and the paddles themselves are too thin and too stubby. I've always loved BMW's paddles, regardless of the specific model. The old M5/M6 paddles felt perfect imo - nice thick chunks of metal with deep travel and a positive thunk.

Edit: like this pic of a CLA45's paddles. Too small and thin and they feel like buttons with a paddle attached instead.

[tallshortguy]

Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing

I meant more in the AMG vs M classes. I feel as though we've seen a greater push for Merc to make better handling cars (C63 faster around the Ring than e9x m3 and better steering) and BMW pushing towards fast cars that are a bit numb and dont handle that well (M5 being beaten by the CLS63/S6). And Randy Pobst/MT saying the new M5/6 are the complete antithesis of what M once stood for.

The standard C63 was 8 seconds slower around the ring than the standard e9x M3 when both were tested by sport auto. The M3 GTS also did it in 7:48 magazine tested, not sure if they did a 507 test. The e9x M3 had a superior chassis and precision. The new M3/4 has also been praised for a very good chassis and superior agility over it's predecessor. So, I'm not sure how this is somehow M making purely burnout machines while AMG is focusing more on precision.

Also, the R&T super sedan comparo where the M5 won against the likes of the e63, panamera turbo, and RS7 specifically mentioned the fun factor and steering as key to why it took the win.

[Demetrius Joel]

I know I will catch shit for this, but I don't care, lol. I don't like the interior. The nav screen looks stupid and out of place. Like an ipad sitting there. I don't feel like it goes well with the interior at all. And I've never been a fan of the circular air vents either. Now I must admit the exterior is def a looker. As with most Benzs these days.

[Wolfinwolfsclothing]

Originally Posted by tallshortguy

The standard C63 was 8 seconds slower around the ring than the standard e9x M3 when both were tested by sport auto. The M3 GTS also did it in 7:48 magazine tested, not sure if they did a 507 test. The e9x M3 had a superior chassis and precision. The new M3/4 has also been praised for a very good chassis and superior agility over it's predecessor. So, I'm not sure how this is somehow M making purely burnout machines while AMG is focusing more on precision.

Also, the R&T super sedan comparo where the M5 won against the likes of the e63, panamera turbo, and RS7 specifically mentioned the fun factor and steering as key to why it took the win.

I am talking about the current generation m cars, not the old ones.

The m5 lost to the panamera GTS on multiple occasions saying it was not nearly as fun to drive nor had the precision and feel of the porsche...expected results.

In the link I provided above, the m5 lost to the s6 and e63. This review and every other has stated the m5 is numb and lacks feel...which is true driving the car.

Here's is last years m6 in the MT best drivers car comparo. It came in 10th out of 12 cars. Not flattering at all. Particularly read the last sentence.

http://www.motortrend.com/features/p...?__federated=1

The c63 black, Sls amg and Sls black are cars bmw simply can't compete with". They are very good drivers cars and out of bmws league. Despite being heavy and having a worse power to weight than the m3 gts the c63 black series ran 7:46 so they beat bmw there with a car that weighed 3800 lbs vs the m3 gts which was 3400. Says a lot about merc to me lately.

I know the e92 m3 well, I'm on my second one, and the c63 was right there neck and neck. It was a little better but not by much and the c63 did have much better steering feel.

The recent EVO comparo with the m4 and base 991 showed the same. M4 lacked feel and had trouble staying planted. The base 991 despite a much worse power to weight crushed it by 1.4 seconds on a sub 1:20 lap time.

Also, the current m4 has lost every comparo to the old c63 it has had.

I just feel as though Mercedes has really done a great job with handling on their amgs and black series cars whereas m cars are just fast sleighs these days.

The new m4 is certainly a better car than the e9x m3 objectively, but the frenetic charismatic nature of the car is no longer there.

[tallshortguy]

Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing

I am talking about the current generation m cars, not the old ones.

The m5 lost to the panamera GTS on multiple occasions saying it was not nearly as fun to drive nor had the precision and feel of the porsche...expected results.

In the link I provided above, the m5 lost to the s6 and e63. This review and every other has stated the m5 is numb and lacks feel...which is true driving the car.

Here's is last years m6 in the MT best drivers car comparo. It came in 10th out of 12 cars. Not flattering at all. Particularly read the last sentence.

http://www.motortrend.com/features/p...?__federated=1

The c63 black, Sls amg and Sls black are cars bmw simply can't compete with". They are very good drivers cars and out of bmws league. Despite being heavy and having a worse power to weight than the m3 gts the c63 black series ran 7:46 so they beat bmw there with a car that weighed 3800 lbs vs the m3 gts which was 3400. Says a lot about merc to me lately.

I know the e92 m3 well, I'm on my second one, and the c63 was right there neck and neck. It was a little better but not by much and the c63 did have much better steering feel.

The recent EVO comparo with the m4 and base 991 showed the same. M4 lacked feel and had trouble staying planted. The base 991 despite a much worse power to weight crushed it by 1.4 seconds on a sub 1:20 lap time.

Also, the current m4 has lost every comparo to the old c63 it has had.

I just feel as though Mercedes has really done a great job with handling on their amgs and black series cars whereas m cars are just fast sleighs these days.

The new m4 is certainly a better car than the e9x m3 objectively, but the frenetic charismatic nature of the car is no longer there.

I'm also talking about the current gen M's... R&T did a comparo this year in which the F10 M5 beat out the the e63, panamera turbo, and rs7. This was in response to your criticism of the M5's precision and steering.

Also, you said c63 was faster than the e9x M3, and I already showed you the ring times on the M3 are significantly faster. You never said black series, which is actually 3700 lbs curb weight and the m3 GTS has a curb weight of 3550 from what I've seen of manufacturer released weights. With those weights, the c63 black series actually has a significant power to weight advantage, not disadvantage. I don't think beating the GTS by 2 seconds on the ring with a power to weight advantage is indicative of AMG doing a better job at making precision cars.

Lastly, the M3 lost the comparison on the theatrics of the engine mostly, both reviews clearly cited the M4 as the technically superior and more precise car, which is what the discussion is.

[Wolfinwolfsclothing]

Originally Posted by tallshortguy

I'm also talking about the current gen M's... R&T did a comparo this year in which the F10 M5 beat out the the e63, panamera turbo, and rs7. This was in response to your criticism of the M5's precision and steering.

Also, you said c63 was faster than the e9x M3, and I already showed you the ring times on the M3 are significantly faster. You never said black series, which is actually 3700 lbs curb weight and the m3 GTS has a curb weight of 3550 from what I've seen of manufacturer released weights. With those weights, the c63 black series actually has a significant power to weight advantage, not disadvantage. I don't think beating the GTS by 2 seconds on the ring with a power to weight advantage is indicative of AMG doing a better job at making precision cars.

Lastly, the M3 lost the comparison on the theatrics of the engine mostly, both reviews clearly cited the M4 as the technically superior and more precise car, which is what the discussion is.

The current m5/6 have been criticized for poor steering feel...that's why it lost to the panamera in both comparos vs the gts.

M3 gts weighs 1530 kg or 3373 lbs. power to weight of 7.5. That is right from bmw themselves.

C63 black weights 4044 lbs from edmunds test. Power to weight of 7.92 so despite a worse power to weight it's slightly faster.

All I'm saying is that for merc to be even producing a car that is competing let alone beating as they have done in many instances says a lot to me about how much more effort they are putting towards handling vs the days when they were simply burnout machines.

[tallshortguy]

Originally Posted by Wolfinwolfsclothing

The current m5/6 have been criticized for poor steering feel...that's why it lost to the panamera in both comparos vs the gts.

M3 gts weighs 1530 kg or 3373 lbs. power to weight of 7.5. That is right from bmw themselves.

C63 black weights 4044 lbs from edmunds test. Power to weight of 7.92 so despite a worse power to weight it's slightly faster.

All I'm saying is that for merc to be even producing a car that is competing let alone beating as they have done in many instances says a lot to me about how much more effort they are putting towards handling vs the days when they were simply burnout machines.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...w-m3-gts-drive

Manufacturer est. curb weight for M3 GTS, 3550. They may have had an early est, though I have read some factory estimates to be 3400.

http://autoweek.com/article/car-revi...race-car-looks

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/11/21/2...-drive-review/

Both have 3700 curb weight for the black series. Even if the M3 were to only weight 3300 lb, the C63 black series still has a power to weight advantage.

Like I said, the M5 won for steering feel and fun factor against the panamera turbo, e63, etc. The steering feel is not a universal criticism is what I'm saying.

Anyways, I'm not saying Merc hasn't been building better cars, I'm disputing your claim that they're focusing on precision cars while M isn't, the new M3/4 clearly disproves that claim.

[Wolfinwolfsclothing]

Originally Posted by tallshortguy

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...w-m3-gts-drive

Manufacturer est. curb weight for M3 GTS, 3550. They may have had an early est, though I have read some factory estimates to be 3400.

http://autoweek.com/article/car-revi...race-car-looks

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/11/21/2...-drive-review/

Both have 3700 curb weight for the black series. Even if the M3 were to only weight 3300 lb, the C63 black series still has a power to weight advantage.

Like I said, the M5 won for steering feel and fun factor against the panamera turbo, e63, etc. The steering feel is not a universal criticism is what I'm saying.

Anyways, I'm not saying Merc hasn't been building better cars, I'm disputing your claim that they're focusing on precision cars while M isn't, the new M3/4 clearly disproves that claim.

In the reviews I've read it's been more the rule that the m5 is numb.

As far as c63 black and m3 gts, those are what I Found and based on those the gts has a better power to weight.

I don't think bmw is necessarily trying to make bad handling cars, but they seem to have trouble putting power down. The m5/6 this is very clear and it's turning out to be much the same for the m4. In the comparo where it got spanked by the base 911, franchitti has trouble with the m4 being nervous at the limit, going from under steer to quick oversteer. That is not the way bmw used to be.