[footie]

Originally Posted by methodtim

I think you've forgotten about the Toureg and Q7. I believe they share the same chassis (along with the Cayenne of course). I fully reserve the right to be wrong.

Yeah, there are similarities but there is far bigger differences between the Q7 compared to the Cayenne. The Q7 uses a different awd system, it's weight balance is 50/50 unlike the Toureg, the same goes for the suspension, steering, gearbox and for the most part engines.

My point was that to class VW and Audi as one and same apart from badge and price is wrong, the two are totally different in approach and objective. The only thing I will agree with is that at times both are competing for the same customer, but is that such a bad thing and in any case it's solely at the cheaper end of Audi's product line.

[audiprotein]

LOL look at lambo, they look like an audi inside, so i guess you can call it a "cheap" VW

[methodtim]

Originally Posted by footie

Yeah, there are similarities but there is far bigger differences between the Q7 compared to the Cayenne. The Q7 uses a different awd system, it's weight balance is 50/50 unlike the Toureg, the same goes for the suspension, steering, gearbox and for the most part engines.

My point was that to class VW and Audi as one and same apart from badge and price is wrong, the two are totally different in approach and objective. The only thing I will agree with is that at times both are competing for the same customer, but is that such a bad thing and in any case it's solely at the cheaper end of Audi's product line.

Yeah, I agree with pretty much all of what you're saying. I was || this close to buying a S4 or S5, so I've looked very deeply into Audi's entry level line-up. I didn't see anything but the highest quality craftsmanship and materials used.

[EmPower]

Originally Posted by TwinTurboXI

Thats why BMW makes XI's

Audi's Quattro is the best in the business followed closely by subaru's 4WD systems. No Comparison.

Secondly, the VAG 2.0T is a brilliant brilliant motor. I have driven a lot of cars with that motor in manual and auto guise and I have yet to see a more responsive engine (IMHO it exhibits less lag than the N54 motor)....

Constructive criticism welcome

[E82tt6]

I'll look at Audi when I get sick of my 135i in a few years. If they can offer something that competes with BMW in terms of fun-to-drive, bang for the buck (performance wise), and tunability, I'd jump ship.

[Nikos335i]

Originally Posted by EmPower

Audi's Quattro is the best in the business followed closely by subaru's 4WD systems. No Comparison.

Secondly, the VAG 2.0T is a brilliant brilliant motor. I have driven a lot of cars with that motor in manual and auto guise and I have yet to see a more responsive engine (IMHO it exhibits less lag than the N54 motor)....

Constructive criticism welcome

I think the Subaru's AWD (not 4WD) is actualy better compared to the Quattro AWD. I have no documention to back this claim but I base it on various reviews and reports that I have read over the years. I did enjoy my 6+ year of Audi ownership especially in the white stuff during our long winters!!!

As for the the 2.0T FSI motor it is a gem I agree, the newer version will come with 211hp and 258 lbs/ft of torque compared to 200/207 pretty impressive if you ask me as you will get pretty decent fuel economy as well!

[audiprotein]

We need to keep in mind a couple of things comparing any 4wd systems.
Subaru's are electronic with a really good distribution.
Audis are mechanical (less chance for a failure) used to be 50/50, not they are changing that in s5, b8 a4/s4 and of course r/rs models.
So depending where you drive/how you drive you choose whatever you like more.

[Moderato]

Originally Posted by audiprotein

We need to keep in mind a couple of things comparing any 4wd systems.
Subaru's are electronic with a really good distribution.
Audis are mechanical (less chance for a failure) used to be 50/50, not they are changing that in s5, b8 a4/s4 and of course r/rs models.
So depending where you drive/how you drive you choose whatever you like more.

Actually I think Subaru's are more mechanical. Audi always used a center LSD & open diffs front & rear. Typically the Subarus always have a center & rear LSD and open front diff. The STI's use 3 LSD's and no EBC to simulate an LSD like Audi does on it's open front & rear diffs. I'm not sure if Subaru uses EBC on it's current open front diffs for non STI cars.

[Nikos335i]

Originally Posted by audiprotein

We need to keep in mind a couple of things comparing any 4wd systems.
Subaru's are electronic with a really good distribution.
Audis are mechanical (less chance for a failure) used to be 50/50, not they are changing that in s5, b8 a4/s4 and of course r/rs models.
So depending where you drive/how you drive you choose whatever you like more.

Actually Subaru's AWD system is mechanical and also reffered to as a Symetrical system the split is 50/50. Audi has had in most models at 70/30 (f/r) split and their newer designs will be be heading towards a 40/60 (f/r).

Audi's Torsen AWD is mechenical (longitudinal engine layout A4/A6/A8 etc.) and their Haldex AWD (transverse engine layout A3/TT etc.) is electrical.

Originally Posted by Moderato

Actually I think Subaru's are more mechanical. Audi always used a center LSD & open diffs front & rear. Typically the Subarus always have a center & rear LSD and open front diff. The STI's use 3 LSD's and no EBC to simulate an LSD like Audi does on it's open front & rear diffs. I'm not sure if Subaru uses EBC on it's current open front diffs for non STI cars.

Don't know all of the specifics but you seem quite informed

[footie]

Audi's quattro systems (apart from R8) has always been 50/50 for the Torsen system and only recently shifted to 40/60. It's totally mechanical and shifts it's power quicker than any other system currently available.

The Haldex system has always been 95/5 in normal running and only able to shift up to 50% of the power to the rear, now I have read that Audi are to use an uprated version (Haldex 4) which has the ability to shift all of the power front or rear and to either side of each axle. How this will affect the handling dynamics of their cars is unknown but it must be an improvement.

[Moderato]

Originally Posted by footie

Audi's quattro systems (apart from R8) has always been 50/50 for the Torsen system and only recently shifted to 40/60. It's totally mechanical and shifts it's power quicker than any other system currently available.

To me mechanical AWD means LSD's. Using open diffs & EBC is electronic. Audi has used a center LSD and open diffs w/EBC front and rear for a long while.

[footie]

Originally Posted by Moderato

To me mechanical AWD means LSD's. Using open diffs & EBC is electronic. Audi has used a center LSD and open diffs w/EBC front and rear for a long while.

It depends on each person's opinion, to me it's how the power is shifted front to rear that determines whether it's mechanical or electronic. With the normal Audi Quattro (non A3~TT cars) that process is mechanical.

Audi did do a full LSD system along time ago and their racing setups where also full LSD front and rear but for as long as I remember it's been EBC and open diffs.

[Nikos335i]

Originally Posted by footie

Audi's quattro systems (apart from R8) has always been 50/50 for the Torsen system and only recently shifted to 40/60. It's totally mechanical and shifts it's power quicker than any other system currently available.

The Haldex system has always been 95/5 in normal running and only able to shift up to 50% of the power to the rear, now I have read that Audi are to use an uprated version (Haldex 4) which has the ability to shift all of the power front or rear and to either side of each axle. How this will affect the handling dynamics of their cars is unknown but it must be an improvement.

Yes sorry my mistake you are right it's 50/50 and can transfer the power 70/30 or 30/70.

[Chakra9]

Originally Posted by footie

I haven't seen the results in person, only hearsay but it's meant to have been in a review carried out by Sport Auto some months ago and they were very impressed with the new A4 Quattro chassis.

http://www.fastestlaps.com/track7.html

Excerpts:
Mercedes E 55 AMG 1:18.0 ´02 476 / 1953 Sport Auto
Porsche 993 Carrera 4S 1:18.0 ´95 285 / 1471 sportauto
BMW 335i (e90) 1:18.0 ´06 306 / 1610 Sport Auto
Audi A4 3.2 FSI quattro (B8) 1:18.0 ´07 265 / 1610 Sport Auto

[footie]

Originally Posted by Chakra9

http://www.fastestlaps.com/track7.html

Excerpts:
Mercedes E 55 AMG 1:18.0 ´02 476 / 1953 Sport Auto
Porsche 993 Carrera 4S 1:18.0 ´95 285 / 1471 sportauto
BMW 335i (e90) 1:18.0 ´06 306 / 1610 Sport Auto
Audi A4 3.2 FSI quattro (B8) 1:18.0 ´07 265 / 1610 Sport Auto

Thanks for that.

Well my memory was wrong and the A4 wasn't any quicker than the 335i but then again it wasn't any slower and all that from less power and a less efficient drivetrain.

Not at all bad.

[footie]

Originally Posted by Nikos335i

Yes sorry my mistake you are right it's 50/50 and can transfer the power 70/30 or 30/70.

Actually Quattro in all versions equipped with Torsen can only shift 25% of it power either direction. So for the older system that meant 25/75 or 75/25 and the latest ones 65/35 or 15/85.

I know which one I preferred.