[UltimateBMW]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

It doesn't matter because $100K to an F1 team is chump change. Why would Ferrari or anyone else argue over it? They achieved a 1-2 finish for maximum points in spite of all the uproar over nothing. I'd say it was a good day. Ferrari did exactly what they should have done and what every other team does - maximize their points towards the championships. It's all good IMO.

The amount doesn't matter. You are right.

What does matter is that it is the max allowable before further investigation. I view it more as a place holder. So feel free to discredit it now, but it may not be this low for long.

Of course, its possible nothing will come of the WMSC investigation. But since this rules has been in the limelight for a while I get the feeling they will do something just to nip the situation completely.

[mtla4]

Ferrari always been like that...cheating cheating. It was the perfect match with Shoemaker(cheater that it Hill in 94 JV in 97) and various other occasions.

[UltimateBMW]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

IMO what should come is the elimination of an unenforceable rule that was implimented because F1 fans have no clue what team sports is all about. If Ferrari is fined a million dollars does that change anything? No of course not. The obligation of the team is to maximize their points gain at every race for both the constructor's and driver's championships and they did.

If people don't like this nor understand team sports, then don't watch team sports. This silly rule did not exist until a knee-jerk reaction by the FIA in 2003. Now there will be even more pressure to repeal this rule.

The rule was still broken on the 25th of July, 2010.

[Tonybest]

Please,

[KingOfJericho]

I have a new addition to my ignore list (the only one, FWIW).

[JoeyBananaz18]

this dispute can go on until abu dabi. i see where trackrat is coming from. there was never a command given by the team over the radio that said "let alonso pass." however given what was said over the radio, it was implied that the team wanted alonso to pass massa. I think that much we can all agree on.

as to why they wanted him up front, I'm surprised many people don't see it the way i'm seeing it. why have massa slow down and block his teammate? if alonso is clearly faster than massa, he should go around and massa should be blocking vettel.

yes i am a ferrari fan. i have a prancing horse flag on my wall over my bed (along with a BMW flag). but im just as big of a massa fan. another guy i work with is a ferrari fan, and he disapproved of everything that happened yesterday. on the contrary, i also work with 2 mclaren fans (one being my boss) and they both thought that it was the right move.
while this is a race and a way to put the drivers under a microscope to see who's fastest, its also a team sport before anything else. either driver winning a driver's championship is highly unlikely, but if they can dominate the next few race weekends the way they did this past, they'll be right on top. i think a constructor's title says alot more the just the DC. thats what i said to my boss at the end of 2008 (just 1 point separating massa and hamilton).

[Javi335]

party claps!

[E90SLAM]

The team bosses saying they will let their drivers race, that's not entirely true...when the right moment comes, the will pick in favor the team to win BOTH WDC and WCC.

I absolutely understand why did Ferrari did this, the team was trailing a big gap behind RBR and McLaren, they will need the 1-2, and they will get it anyways. But the most point scored driver in Ferrari is FA and he was trailing a massive points behind Vettel, Webber, Button, Hamilton, and just a few points ahead of Rosberg and Kubica. Thus, they need a decision to bring both Ferrari and FA back in the Championship game ASAP.

However, "rules" are clearly written. They could've done it in a more discrete way and have the boss Stefano D directly tell Massa what to do, not Rob Smedley do the dirty work. Plus, given both cars were at P2 and P3 starting the race, shouldn't they have some strategy agreed during the strategy meeting. As if they didn't foresee themselves could score a 1-2 on Sunday. Its more like a random decision being acted, and pushed by FA's radio communication.

The ban of team orders contradicts the "team" sports itself. Its a team sport and there will ALWAYS be team orders. The rule should be scrapped or re-written.

Since the rule is here to stay at the moment. Ferrari should follow and play by the rules.

[E90SLAM]

[SonnyJack]

Originally Posted by E90SLAM

The team bosses saying they will let their drivers race, that's not entirely true...when the right moment comes, the will pick in favor the team to win BOTH WDC and WCC.

I absolutely understand why did Ferrari did this, the team was trailing a big gap behind RBR and McLaren, they will need the 1-2, and they will get it anyways. But the most point scored driver in Ferrari is FA and he was trailing a massive points behind Vettel, Webber, Button, Hamilton, and just a few points ahead of Rosberg and Kubica. Thus, they need a decision to bring both Ferrari and FA back in the Championship game ASAP.

However, "rules" are clearly written. They could've done it in a more discrete way and have the boss Stefano D directly tell Massa what to do, not Rob Smedley do the dirty work. Plus, given both cars were at P2 and P3 starting the race, shouldn't they have some strategy agreed during the strategy meeting. As if they didn't foresee themselves could score a 1-2 on Sunday. Its more like a random decision being acted, and pushed by FA's radio communication.

The ban of team orders contradicts the "team" sports itself. Its a team sport and there will ALWAYS be team orders. The rule should be scrapped or re-written.

Since the rule is here to stay at the moment. Ferrari should follow and play by the rules.

Well put. However, what if the roles of the two drivers were reversed? I just can't see Alonso pulling over for Massa. Maybe I'm wrong and he really is a team player, but I have my doubts.

[E90SLAM]

Originally Posted by SonnyJack

Well put. However, what if the roles of the two drivers were reversed? I just can't see Alonso pulling over for Massa. Maybe I'm wrong and he really is a team player, but I have my doubts.

I agree, but its all speculation. All we know was Kimi has no problem letting Massa pass like he did in Chinese GP 2008. But FA has a much bigger ego than both Kimi and Felipe...

[inTgr8r]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

In reality we have no clue exactly what the radio message meant. .....

^time to move on.

CIRCUMSTANTIAL EVIDENCE

Circumstantial evidence is best explained by saying what it is not - it is not direct evidence from a witness who saw or heard something. Circumstantial evidence is a fact that can be used to infer another fact.

Indirect evidence that implies something occurred but doesn't directly prove it; proof of one or more facts from which one can find another fact; proof of a chain of facts and circumstances indicating that the person is either guilty or not guilty.

E.g., If a man accused of embezzling money from his company had made several big-ticket purchases in cash around the time of the alleged embezzlement, that would be circumstantial evidence that he had stolen the money. The law makes no distinction between the weight given to either direct or circumstantial evidence.

[JoeyBananaz18]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

In reality we have no clue exactly what the radio message meant. It could have been Massa was being told that Alonso was faster so that there was not a repeat of the Vettel/Webber incident which was very costly in points.

this is exactly what i believe.

[inTgr8r]

you guys are hilarious.

..done here

[SonnyJack]

Originally Posted by inTgr8r

you guys are hilarious.

..done here

Couldn't have said it better myself. People have been convicted with far less evidence than what was heard over the Ferrari radio. And to think WE were acussed of Fanboism....

[JoeyBananaz18]

I was forced to watch the race on Sunday at work, but i could only stream it in German so I couldn't understand any of the commentating. The race was just shown again on SPEED. The following was a quote from one of the commentators (I'm really not sure who) seconds after the radio transmission to Massa was given.......

"The only way the teams can instigate team orders between their cars legitimately to the sporting regs, is if one car can categorically say that I am faster than the car ahead, my teammate, therefore you must let me past. And that is exactly the message that has been given to Massa. Massa couldn't keep that gap. Rob Smedley asked him to keep it up to 3 seconds and Alonso cut it back down. The message must have come from the pit wall and now you must give Alonso that position."

I don't see how this could lead to the uproar it has.

[UltimateBMW]

Originally Posted by JoeyBananaz18

"The only way the teams can instigate team orders between their cars legitimately to the sporting regs, is if one car can categorically say that I am faster than the car ahead, my teammate, therefore you must let me past. And that is exactly the message that has been given to Massa. Massa couldn't keep that gap. Rob Smedley asked him to keep it up to 3 seconds and Alonso cut it back down. The message must have come from the pit wall and now you must give Alonso that position."

All of that quoted is rubbish.

Right now, there are no team orders allowed at all. None. While it still happens, it happens behind the scenes and some in code.

The cause of the uproar is that the team order allegedly happened. The fans especially are upset because that kind of a move just sucks the life out of the remainder of the race.

[UltimateBMW]

Originally Posted by TrackRat

Why does it "suck the life out of the remainder of the race"? Do the fans not have a clue about F1 racing? If not does it matter if they are upset? Massa and Alonso would have finished 1-2 or 2-1 regardless.

The fact of the matter is Ferrari did not violate any rules. This is your typical over-reaction just like we see in this thread with all the emotion and barbs, which changes nothing.

You are trying too hard to defend against it. Only the last bit of my post just now was opinionated.

I also mentioned it was only an alleged team order. Figured you of all people would have picked up on that nuance.

Saying the it sucked the life out of the race is exactly what the implementation did for me. The race for 1st was effectively over when the switch happened and the orientation of the podium was set in stone. This is anything but an over reaction, and for a realist such as yourself you really can't disagree. And who is suggesting anything change? I'm perfectly content with the Steward fine and the issue being brought before the WMSC. Don't forget, I'm not again team orders. I said so on page 2 of this thread. Because of the circumstances, I just think it was done in poor taste. A similar view to MSC.

[UltimateBMW]

It absolutely matters if the fans are upset.

[revster]

I understand F1 racing just fine.

What I don't understand is why fans tolerate the staggering stink of bullshit coming from Maranello.

[nordique14]

Of course Ferrari gave team orders. That should not even be open to debate. IMO, they should be allowed to give team orders. They own the team don't they?

But they need to be aware of the repercussions. That being the blow back from the fans and the hit to the morale of Massa. Being told half way through the season that you are no longer considered a contender has to have some affect on Massa. If Ferrari is willing to put up with an upset employee and pissed off fans then give a team order. That is there choice to make. They must feel it was worth it even though I do not.

[Shevon]

Originally Posted by SonnyJack

The only one who benefited was Alonso. The "team" would have scored maximum points regardless of whether it was alonso-massa, or massa-alonso. That's the part that blows. No way will Alonso win the drivers championship this year. Too erratic. He's in 5th place because he is the 5th best driver. He needs to quit his fucking bitching and drive more consistently.

My thoughts exactly. we racing you have no skill to pass me so bitch to mommy and make me get out the way. Fuck that cry baby ass. Its racing for a reason pass me......if you can