[ward]

Originally Posted by svengali

As far as I know, it is the German clever copy of the variable valve timing that Honda created. I could be off though.

when did honda come out with v-tec, I know my 95 M3 had it on exhaust cam??

[ward]

Originally Posted by svengali

As far as I know, it is the German clever copy of the variable valve timing that Honda created. I could be off though.

Just did some internet research, honda had it in 91, bmw had it in 92
not really long enough between the two dates for a simple copy, both of them must have been working independently

[wannabe]

Originally Posted by ward

Just did some internet research, honda had it in 91, bmw had it in 92
not really long enough between the two dates for a simple copy, both of them must have been working independently

Honda had it on their F1 cars and experiments first waaay before they had it on production cars. Everyone else copied. Just admit it. It's ok.

[johnfkitchen]

I've seen the light. I'm moving over to a Honda forum. I can't imagine what I was thinking when I ordered a 330i. I wonder if I can swap it for an old Honda. Yeah, in my dreams.

[wannabe]

Originally Posted by johnfkitchen

I've seen the light. I'm moving over to a Honda forum. I can't imagine what I was thinking when I ordered a 330i. I wonder if I can swap it for an old Honda. Yeah, in my dreams.

I'm not saying buy a Honda. I'm just letting you know that BMW didn't come up with everything. Why does everyone on this forum keep insisitng that BMW is the only carmaker that develops new technology?

I would rather have a BMW than a Honda any day...but don't discredit Honda for coming up with variable valve timing.

[romeo26]

hmm...i think honda came up with vtec before bmw came with vanous(spelling) i can be wrong though!!! to my understanding vtec has a diffrent set of cam lobes that when you hit a cirtain rpm the engin will go on to the second set of lobes (is this right?), its like having a normal street engine, but past a cirtain rpm you have an almost racing engine. how does the bmw version work?

[voltron1011]

Originally Posted by romeo26

hmm...i think honda came up with vtec before bmw came with vanous(spelling) i can be wrong though!!! to my understanding vtec has a diffrent set of cam lobes that when you hit a cirtain rpm the engin will go on to the second set of lobes (is this right?), its like having a normal street engine, but past a cirtain rpm you have an almost racing engine. how does the bmw version work?

There are actually two parts to the systems. The first is the variable valve timing system (VVTi, Vtec, Vanos, etc). The system simply advances or decreases the cams for either/both intake and exhaust cams. The second system is known as lift control (VVTi-L, Valvetronic, etc). The Honda and Toyota system uses two sets of cam lobes for each pair of intake and exhaust valves. When the computer switches from the low profile cam (torque) to the high profile cam (high rpm horsepower), this is what gives these cars their signature KICK. BMWs system is far superior in that it does not rely on two sepperate cam lobes, but instead it is infinitly adjustable lift control for the valves (Valvetronic). This is why all valvetronic motors do not have a traditional throttle valve (butterfly). So, when the motor is idling, the intake valves are opening very slightly. As the motor builds up rpms, the valves begin to open further and further. BMW's motors are the only motor in the world (minus diesels) that incorperate a throttleplate-less motor. Throttle plates are extremely restrictive to a traditional motor that is only operating at partial throttle, which is about 90% of the time. I read a good comparison of a throttle plate being the same as choking a marithon runner to control how fast he runs. The more you choke him the less air he gets and slower he runs.

I'll also read recently that Alfa Romeo had a variable valve timing system in their 1987 Alfa 164. The system was known as VIVT (Variable Intake Valve Timing). It was incorperated on a traditional 8 valve 4 cylinder motor with the signature twin-spark plugs.

I had also read somewhere else that there was another car back in the 70's that also had variable valve timing. I will have to do some more research on that, though.

I am not trying to shoot down Honda or any Japenese engineers. I personally have owned countless Toyotas and Hondas in my life. Also, the automotive industry is one big beast, so whatever one company comes up with will obviously be taken by the rest. For example, if it wasn't for Volvo's invention of the 3-point seatbelt, a lot of us wouldn't be sitting here posting about this and that. I also think people should do a little research before posting what they believe is fact.

[wannabe]

I did some reading and voltron1011 is right. Variable valve timing was around before Honda came up with V-TEC. But Honda was the first to implement variable valve timing and lift (which consequently was copied and improved upon by other car manufacturers). This allows the engine to have maximum performance at higher RPMs (race engine) without sacrificing driveability and fuel efficiency at the lower end of the RPM range (normal street car).

Here's an article on V-TEC and why Honda implementation was revolutionary compared to the variable valve timing systems of the past: http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...113_0307_vtec/

Notable quotes:
"Racing engines have longer intake/exhaust timing, a higher valve lift, and a narrower lobe displacement angle (LDA) than standard engines, which for low-speed response and power tend to have short durations, low valve-lift numbers, and a wide LDA. Beginning with the '89 Honda Integra in Japan and the '90 Acura NSX supercar in the U.S., Honda implemented a novel solution to the problem, effectively combining the attributes of both passenger-car and race-car cam timing with its unique VTEC system. The initials stand for Variable Valve Timing and Lift Electronic Control, and as the name implies, a VTEC engine can actually alter the cam timing while the engine is running."

"Honda's VTEC system was more sophisticated than earlier variable-valve-timing systems developed by other manufacturers, which could only change the time both valves are open during the intake/exhaust overlap period on the transition between the exhaust and induction strokes. By contrast, the VTEC setup can alter both camshaft duration and valve lift."

"When combined with advanced cylinder head and intake and exhaust manifold design, the VTEC concept permits some Honda engines to deliver over 1.5 hp/ci, pass future low-emissions standards, and meet all fuel economy targets. In it, we see perhaps the ultimate and final evolution in internal combustion engine technology."

[wannabe]

Here's another article, short read, so read it:
http://www.streetracersonline.com/ar...amshafts/3.php

Notable quotes:
"Honda was the first to offer what it called VTEC in its Acura-badged performance models like the Integra GS-R and NSX (it has since worked its way into the Prelude and even the lowly Civic) ... While this system does not offer continuously variable valve timing, it can make the most of high rpm operation while still providing solid drivability at lower rpm levels. Honda is already working on a three-step VTEC system that will further improve performance and efficiency across the engine rpm range."

"Toyota saw the success Honda was having with VTEC (from both a functional and marketing standpoint) but decided to go a different route. "

"Several other manufacturers, including Ford, Lamborghini and Porsche have jumped on the cam phasing bandwagon because it is a relatively cheap method of increasing horsepower, torque and efficiency. BMW has also used a cam phasing system, called VANOS (Variable Onckenwellen Steuerung) for several years. Like the other manufacturers, this system only affected the intake cams. But, as of 1999, BMW is offering its Double VANOS system on the new 3 Series."

[wannabe]

VANOS maybe more superior...but you can't deny that Honda had a hand in making BMW develop this technology because they were the first.

[RachelS]

I just wanted to note this thread that my tranny problem is not totally fixed..

I just think the performace is better, not the tranny...

[voltron1011]

Originally Posted by wannabe

VANOS maybe more superior...but you can't deny that Honda had a hand in making BMW develop this technology because they were the first.

No, I never said that... And yes Honda is a MAJOR engineering corporation (not just auto). I agree with you, wannabe, that people shouldn't be so brand devoted, and we should give credit where credit is due to companies like Honda that spearheaded modern engine technologies.

Who would have thought that we would have engines that are making 100 hp/Liter and still get 30 miles to the gallon?

[DaveCM5]

Variable Valve Timing was an inevitable automotive evolution with tightening emissions restrictions. Whether or not Honda was the first to employ it doesn't really matter. Everybody is working on it. The way Honda does it and the way BMW does it are two completely different ways. Also, how it's utilized is different. If it wasn't then I'm sure there would be patent infringment lawsuits in the works.

It's like saying all the auto manufacturers copied whoever came up with the first intake manifold. All the designs are different, but they perform the same function, some better than others, and probably ALL of them perform better than the first one.

-Dave C. '06 330i

[agarbati]

People, people, people, let's talk about the tranny hesitation RachelS brought up in the first place. Seems like this thread segwayed into a VVT and VANOS debate.

[noflash]

Originally Posted by midwest_rollin'

is it just me or is anyone else finding these responses to be sort of cryptic and not very articulate?

I hear you m_r.

Originally Posted by RachelS

I just wanted to note this thread that my tranny problem is not totally fixed..

I just think the performace is better, not the tranny...

[silverado]

Does the "hesitation" happen in Sport mode?

[chazmtb]

The hesitation is not due to double vanos or valvetronic. It has to do with lag the drive by wire system. It was apparent in my friend's 04 330i as well with numerous e46s and well documented. Software upgrades enhance the drive by wire response system giving a more direct throttle response with less lag.

[jiggax23]

i have no hesitation in my car. i noticed it at first, but after 1000 miles or so, no more. after 2000 miles, even better. the breaks are getting softer though, but maybe that cuz im always making stops from 130 mph =X

[RachelS]

chazmtb
You sound like you are right...but I will say, it's 95 here today and it's WORSE...it seems the hotter it get the more I notice it.
does this make sense....

[DaveCM5]

Mine does have a hesistation as well. I can't believe it's the drive-by-wire because my Corvette had that and there was no hesitation. But I suppose BMW's software is different.

If I really step on it from a light it doesn't hesitate, but at light throttle application I seem to notice it more. It's not the tranny shifting down a gear, because it always upshifts to 2nd at light throttle around 10MPH (which is a little annoying as well, might as well just start in 2nd)

-Dave C.

[RachelS]

Hey dave, you hit it one the head!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[silverado]

Can someone describe this hesitation in some detail? What exactly do you experience? How does it feel? How does it sound? When does it happen? When does it not happen?

An answer has to be at least 200 words to qualify as being a detailed answer to this question

Oh, it also needs to contain multi-sentence paragraphs!!