[TENCHI]

Originally Posted by USAF BMW

Yet somehow, people on here dont think they are a big part of our economy...

Cause they are not. They may be a big part of SoCal Economy or Texas, but alas, the US is made up of 50 states, not 2 or 3.

[tl_boy]

many of them don't pay taxes (some do thru use of ID cards, no SS# req'd), but i think it ends up the same. We pay for their hospitals, education, roads, etc. and they work for $4 an hour. This lowers our costs of construction, food, etc. So while we pay lower amounts for these items (compare to Europe for example).

Its in one pocket and out the other. Is there a deficit? very possibly, its just i don't think we should completely discount the fact that we pay less for things because we pay THEM less. And their incentive for working less, is, of course the free education, health, public infrastructure.

I don't know if you guys realize just how far and wide their labor is. They are one of the major groups of people in the meat packing and agricultural industry in this country (surprisingly, there are many mexicans in rural areas like nebraska, tennesse, kentucky, etc), california and florida farms, all over the U.S., particularly southern states in construction labor and landscaping. All over the U.S. as cooks, waitstaff, etc. I mean, they are NOT getting paid minimum wages, and that would result in a lowering of costs for us.

I don't see a problem in the poor and weak coming to this country (European immigrants were poor and weak, as were most Asian immigrants). But, the particular concern i guess is just HOW will this particular group of people, who, if things continue as we know will make up the #1 culture of America in 20-40 years, represent this country? Will theybe a group of overpopulated, 15 to a house, uneducated, drug dealing group, or will they integrate well, lower their reproduction levels, and have a net positive effect on this nation?

[tl_boy]

I wouldn't reduce it to 2 or 3 states, i think thats a long shot. I know what you're saying, though, even in NYC, I saw TONS of hispanics. If w'ere saying Mexicans ONLY, perhaps you're right, but I can't tell the difference anyway between Guatemalans, Dominicans, Puerto Ricans, etc.

Originally Posted by TENCHI

Cause they are not. They may be a big part of SoCal Economy or Texas, but alas, the US is made up of 50 states, not 2 or 3.

[deutschmann59]

Originally Posted by USAF BMW

Yet somehow, people on here dont think they are a big part of our economy...

Correct me if I'm reading this wrong, but by saying they are a "big part" you mean they are helping to bring it down, rather than contribute, right?

I have nothing against anyone who wants a better life and is willing to work, but 3 doctors have left my local hospital last week because 40% of their practice dealt with pro bono cases and these doctors here were literally going broke.

Originally Posted by USAF BMW

Yet somehow, people on here dont think they are a big part of our economy...

They have a tremendous negative effect on the California economy as well as the nation's.

[BellasBmw]

So its official, my mom has to close the restaurant tomororw cause the dish washer and food prep arent coming in. So the only people that will be working tomorrow are me, my mom, and the delivery driver. We cant stay open because if we are busy, then theres no way my mom can cook, prepare, and help me serve. HOWEVER, this doesnt show how much we need them, it just so happens that my brother who is the main chef is out of town. So bad timing. But now i dont work, and no money for me. :mad:

[deutschmann59]

Originally Posted by CMD

They have a tremendous negative effect on the California economy as well as the nation's.

Ha ha, yeah I guess in that way, they are a big part.

My favorite catch phrase of this whole mess is "illegal aliens do jobs that americans don't want".

Well, who says Americans don't want those jobs? What about high school American kids looking for part-time work in landscaping, being a cashier, housekeeping, waiter/waitress etc.?

I would have taken any one of these jobs when I was in high school, for (at the time) what was decent money, but also for work experience, references, ect. But instead, I never had a job in high school because they were all presumably taken. I never had a single reply when I sent out my applications.

[NaTuReB0Y]

a day without a mexican.........

[TENCHI]

Originally Posted by tl_boy

I wouldn't reduce it to 2 or 3 states, i think thats a long shot. I know what you're saying, though, even in NYC, I saw TONS of hispanics. If w'ere saying Mexicans ONLY, perhaps you're right, but I can't tell the difference anyway between Guatemalans, Dominicans, Puerto Ricans, etc.

we are talking about illegal immigrants. not legal immigrants.

Most of the so called "contribution" by illegals would be concentrated in the southern states that border Mexico. Although I am sure the other agriculture states would have some benefits from illegal immigration, overall....ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION DOES NOT CONTRIBUTE A LOT TO THE OVERALL US ECONOMY.

Legal Immigrants most likely do.

[TENCHI]

Originally Posted by sharp1183

Ha ha, yeah I guess in that way, they are a big part.

My favorite catch phrase of this whole mess is "illegal aliens do jobs that americans don't want".

Well, who says Americans don't want those jobs? What about high school American kids looking for part-time work in landscaping, being a cashier, housekeeping, waiter/waitress etc.?

I would have taken any one of these jobs when I was in high school, for (at the time) what was decent money, but also for work experience, references, ect. But instead, I never had a job in high school because they were all presumably taken. I never had a single reply when I sent out my applications.

don't forget that the average LEGAL immigrant is not a college educated person with tons of family money saved up to open a business. There are many LEGAL immigrants that need these menial so called "jobs that Americans don't want". Don't forget....LEGAL immigrants are AMERICANS. ILLEGALS ARE NOT.

[magmd]

LEGAL immigrants that need these menial so called "jobs that Americans don't want".

Yes, but you cannot exploit legal immigrants. You have to give them reasonable work hours, health benefits, disability, retirement planning. Oh...and you have to stick to that stupid thing called minimum wage. And they can form unions...and can sue you for breaking any of the above. As long as employers of this country want to cut corners and make more profits...there will always be a market to employ illegal immigrants...over anyone else who wants to be treated fairly and given rights---like any member of this country.

So yeah...lets deny these illegals all rights, services, and hope that american business owners offer jobs preferentially to white america, and LEGAL immigrants instead. If not...lets kill them all. Oh...can we get the homeless while we are at it too??

[TENCHI]

Originally Posted by magmd

LEGAL immigrants that need these menial so called "jobs that Americans don't want".

Yes, but you cannot exploit legal immigrants. You have to give them reasonable work hours, health benefits, disability, retirement planning. Oh...and you have to stick to that stupid thing called minimum wage. And they can form unions...and can sue you for breaking any of the above. As long as employers of this country want to cut corners and make more profits...there will always be a market to employ illegal immigrants...over anyone else who wants to be treated fairly and given rights---like any member of this country.

So yeah...lets deny these illegals all rights, services, and hope that american business owners offer jobs preferentially to white america, and LEGAL immigrants instead. If not...lets kill them all. Oh...can we get the homeless while we are at it too??

so you're saying we should bring back slavery too then I suppose.

Originally Posted by tl_boy

I mean, they are NOT getting paid minimum wages, and that would result in a lowering of costs for us.

If the illegal aliens were paid a fair wage, it would only effect consumer cost minimally. It's the EMPLOYERS of these ILLEGAL ALIENS that reap the HUGE profits. IMO these employers should be fined heavily and jailed, and the illegals sent back to their homeland--which is where their earnings are sent and their allegiance lies anyway.

Many illegal Mexican immigrant aliens treat the United States like a two-bit hooker: Take everything they can from her, pay her nothing, spit on her and then walk away laughing.

[deutschmann59]

Originally Posted by TENCHI

Don't forget....LEGAL immigrants are AMERICANS. ILLEGALS ARE NOT.

Yeah, believe me, that's what I'm saying. I'm all for legal immigration. No one in this country is in any position to stop legal immigration. But there's a process and I've got all the respect in the world for people who come here and follow the process.

When I said "illegal aliens take jobs americans don't want" I was referring to those cases you hear about in the news every once in a while...cases like what happened 8 miles from here. 80 illegal aliens were caught working on a construction site building a new wal-mart.

That's what I'm talking about. Definitely not legal immigrants. I've got three very close immigrant friends that came here LEGALLY all less than 15 years ago. I'm saying illegal aliens are taking American jobs. I want to be very clear about that point. And it all stems from poor border security, etc.

[magmd]

Originally Posted by TENCHI

so you're saying we should bring back slavery too then I suppose.

Interesting that you say that...

and...since you brought it up.

There is a reason why people are being sympathetic to the rights of illegal immigrants. Yes..they came here illegally. And we need to figure out a way to help regulate influx of all immigrants in a legal fashion. But, illegal immigrants are here now by whatever means. What are we going to do about it?? Treat them like slaves..as you have been able to identify by my previous sarcastic post. Because that is what many across the country are suggesting, they just do not realize it. You say they do not contribute to our economy, and only drain it, ruin our educational systems, healthcare systems, etc. Therefore, we should deny them all rights, services, charge them various taxes..and well, just use them for labor while they are here and if they do not like it....well, kill them off or deport them. So yeah...it sure sounds like a modern system of slavery, just many here are dancing around the issue. Its hatred and frustration being scapegoated towards a group of marginalized people.

Or are going to try to treat them like human beings?? Anyone heard of this novel concept that states..."No taxation without representation". Not sure what it means...especially not these days.

[deutschmann59]

I'm not trying to be a prick here or anything, and this may sound silly or even mean, but how can illegals have rights? No one gave us Americans rights. We, as a nation, had to fight and die for our established rights. Anyone who wants to live here from another country should follow the same rules everyone else followed in the past. These aliens are laughing at us and are cheating the system that our ancestors fought to create. How could anyone not be mad about that?

The analogy of illegals and rights is like someone who complains about taxes, but that person refuses to vote in elections.

[TENCHI]

Originally Posted by magmd

Interesting that you say that...

and...since you brought it up.

There is a reason why people are being sympathetic to the rights of illegal immigrants. Yes..they came here illegally. And we need to figure out a way to help regulate influx of all immigrants in a legal fashion. But, illegal immigrants are here now by whatever means. What are we going to do about it?? Treat them like slaves..as you have been able to identify by my previous sarcastic post. Because that is what many across the country are suggesting, they just do not realize it. You say they do not contribute to our economy, and only drain it, ruin our educational systems, healthcare systems, etc. Therefore, we should deny them all rights, services, charge them various taxes..and well, just use them for labor while they are here and if they do not like it....well, kill them off or deport them. So yeah...it sure sounds like a modern system of slavery, just many here are dancing around the issue. Its hatred and frustration being scapegoated towards a group of marginalized people.

Or are going to try to treat them like human beings?? Anyone heard of this novel concept that states..."No taxation without representation". Not sure what it means...especially not these days.

what?


I am too busy watching Star Wars: Empire Strikes back lol.


I just realized that your little gif is actually pretty much the entire movie.

[magmd]

Originally Posted by sharp1183

I'm not trying to be a prick here or anything, and this may sound silly or even mean, but how can illegals have rights? No one gave us Americans rights. We, as a nation, had to fight and die for our established rights. Anyone who wants to live here from another country should follow the same rules everyone else followed in the past. These aliens are laughing at us and are cheating the system that our ancestors fought to create. How could anyone not be mad about that?

The analogy of illegals and rights is like someone who complains about taxes, but that person refuses to vote in elections.

Exactly. Please refer to my first post. Let's not let them get away with anything....they are illegals, so let's treat them like the disrespectful animals that they are. Its not like they are humans or anything.

[Daveop]

I think what alot of you "born americans" are completly missing is that your parents worked hard and established themselves because THEY WERE ALLOWED TO. There were no limits on immigration back then. The only reason these people are being called "illegal immigrants" is because of an artificial limit on immigration. These people are starving for work and money and thats why they are coming regardless of what border patrol there is. The same thing happened when there was the irish potatoe famine, millions of them came over cause they had shit left, except in that situation they were allowed in (from a legal standpoint).. Thats why they are very well adjusted americans right now. Because they came here, worked hard, settled down with their kids growing up and getting educated here.

The same shit would happen with mexicans if you would legally let them in, they'd work hard and then settle in and youd have a whole group of new americans that were identical in their hardwork and patriotism as any irish american or italian american.. Instead you classify them as something else, something like animals instead of people, so what u think the result is going to be. Of course they are going to fukin demonstrate on the streets and be more insular with their culture. they are under attack, thats what HUMANS do when they get attacked, they rallye together.

What this is really about more then anything is racism (there are no limits on immigration from northern europe, but severe limits on immigrants from latin america and the middle east.... hmmm...)

at this point the statue of liberty is kinda a joke.

[deutschmann59]

Originally Posted by magmd

Exactly. Please refer to my first post. Let's not let them get away with anything....they are illegals, so let's treat them like the disrespectful animals that they are. Its not like they are humans or anything.

We're trying to have a civilized debate here. No need to get all mad. We've all got opinions and should respect that. You know I'm not saying we should have a witch hunt and find all the illegals and treat them like animals, but I hope you agree that we need some kind of order in this country.

What's your solution to all this, or do you really not see a problem here? I'm honestly interested in hearing the alternate argument.

[Daveop]

Originally Posted by sharp1183

We're trying to have a civilized debate here. No need to get all mad. We've all got opinions and should respect that. You know I'm not saying we should have a witch hunt and find all the illegals and treat them like animals, but I hope you agree that we need some kind of order in this country.

What's your solution to all this, or do you really not see a problem here? I'm honestly interested in hearing the alternate argument.

Despite propaganda, the success of this country was on the back of hardworking immigrants (throughout the generations..), not the puritans.

[TENCHI]

Originally Posted by sharp1183

We're trying to have a civilized debate here. No need to get all mad. We've all got opinions and should respect that. You know I'm not saying we should have a witch hunt and find all the illegals and treat them like animals, but I hope you agree that we need some kind of order in this country.

What's your solution to all this, or do you really not see a problem here? I'm honestly interested in hearing the alternate argument.

I agree. No need to jump to extremes here. Illegals are not animals and are human beings.