[toofasttooslow]

Are we on the cusp of a collapse that will ultimately wipe out our way of life as we know it?

The recent takeover of Fannie and Freddie has me wondering what is next.

There is nobody left to bail us out. No one will assume our risky debt until we get our economy back on track. Europe, Japan and other Western countries are in similar boats. China is doing well but nearly totally dependent on the West for its economy. The world economy is up shit creek right now and headed for a big waterfall without a paddle.

Is a crash iminent?

Will we be able to recover from it, or are we seeing the last remnants of a system that has institutionalized greed, corruption, deceit and generally lousy ethics?

Will we see a new era in which corporate ologopolies act with full impunity and disregard to individuals...or is that already happening?

[ukthunderace]

yes, it is imminent. China depends on the West? We are in debt up to our eyeballs to China. They could destroy us without ever lifting a weapon.

Somewhere along the way, the American dream shifted from owning a house and car and raising a family to having a 3500sq ft home on the beach, a new BMW, SUV and 2 jet skis in the 3 car garage, private schools for the kids, country clubs etc etc etc....
Basically, everyone started thinking that their lives were not complete if they didn't live like people on 90210, O.C., Cribs, Sweet 16, or any of the other crap that people measure their "worth" against.
So now we have unbridled capitalism. People take out loans with no means to pay it back. Unscrupulous Capitalists have no problem making the loan and foreclosing on whatever it is that was purchased.
How does it stop? Well, hold people's feet to the fire. You can't afford your house payments? Oh well, guess you should have lived within your means. Oh no, we can't do that...the govt has to use my money to bail these bastards out. Do I smell socialism? Govt controlled Fannie May? Mmmmm...definitely socialism!!!
What people don't think about though is that this puts the govt in a very strong position and makes those beholden to it bought and paid for.

[gonzo]

I have thought about cutting spending drastically. Socking cash away. Eventually move to an isolated section of Wyoming or New Mexico. Ride the rest of my life out living simple and clean. I am glad I don't have children to worry about.
It is kind of scary lately.

[scottwww]

Originally Posted by gonzo

I have thought about cutting spending drastically. Socking cash away. Eventually move to an isolated section of Wyoming or New Mexico. Ride the rest of my life out living simple and clean. I am glad I don't have children to worry about.
It is kind of scary lately.

I've been thinking that all that money I have put away is going to be worthless when I finally start to spend it. Retirement? You've got to be kidding! I should have been buying real property and sitting on it. Or gold. Or something with intrinsic value.

[gonzo]

My Dad's brother is worth a lot of money. One of those guys if you met you would think he lives in a trailer. He has been stacking gold since the 70's. The rumor is that it is a bank vault full of it. Kruggerrands and bars. He does not even own a single stock. Land/Gold that's it. He does not seem weird/different now with his investment strategy!

[mrwma237]

Originally Posted by ukthunderace

yes, it is imminent. China depends on the West? We are in debt up to our eyeballs to China. They could destroy us without ever lifting a weapon.

Yes, our national debt has risen significantly over the years of Chinese prosperity. Yes, we owe China a great amount of $ as they continue to invest in our treasuries over the years. Now it begs the question, why are they investing so much into us? It is because they are dependent on our markets. Who do you think buys all the stuff that they produce? How is it that they their GDP has grown that dramatically? We are their number 1 consumer, and that's why they are dependent on it.

[SDTopless]

so nobody has faith?

[aut0sh0cker]

Originally Posted by SDTopless

so nobody has faith?

We (humans) are heading straight into a global depression and there is nothing you, or America, or China can do about it...

[Blake]

i smell ron paulonomics

[blue-coupe]

Well, if past performance is any indication of future results, then no, I have no faith.

[ukthunderace]

Study history...you can draw so many parallels between ancient Rome and the U.S.
The sweet sickly smell of decadence.

[jaiman]

Originally Posted by ukthunderace

yes, it is imminent. China depends on the West? We are in debt up to our eyeballs to China. They could destroy us without ever lifting a weapon.

Other way around actually. US defaults, China gets screwed.

Originally Posted by gonzo

My Dad's brother is worth a lot of money. One of those guys if you met you would think he lives in a trailer. He has been stacking gold since the 70's. The rumor is that it is a bank vault full of it. Kruggerrands and bars. He does not even own a single stock. Land/Gold that's it. He does not seem weird/different now with his investment strategy!

Well considering gold has returned 8% anually since 1970 and the S&P 500 has returned about 12% he's made a horrible trade!

[scottwww]

Originally Posted by jaiman

Other way around actually. US defaults, China gets screwed.

Well considering gold has returned 8% anually since 1970 and the S&P 500 has returned about 12% he's made a horrible trade!

To be in the right place at the right time is the trick. It is possible that we are at a low point in the market going from here. After all, it has been rather stagnant since 2000. This could bode well for the future with some huge gains to make up for the recess. But it could be a long way down. If gold had 8% return since 1970, and the S&P 500 12% return, if the market dropped, say 20%, gold just might gain 20%. If that happened, then who would have made the better investment? And had the fewest headaches?

I'll bet that if you looked at equal investments over each of the last 38 years, that the gold investment wouldn't be as far behind today as your example. And with so many indicators of potentially severe economic trouble for the foreseeable future, the next many years could favor gold even more.

I am not really advocating gold for the long term. It's just that investments are not as simple as that. There is less risk with gold which also should be a factor in the equation.

[gonzo]

I am not about to question his investment strategies.

[Expired]

Originally Posted by blakepilot

i smell ron paulonomics

Foooo sho..

Back to the old days of bartering with what you have, not intangible wealth.

-Nathan

[scottwww]

Originally Posted by Expired

Foooo sho..

Back to the old days of bartering with what you have, not intangible wealth.

-Nathan

If we end up with runaway inflation to make our dollars worth less than toilet paper, then we sure could come to the barter and exchange system. If my saving (just numbers on paper) because worth just a single pair of shoes, then it's financial doomsday. Didn't such a thing happen to Germany following World War I?

[325/528]

Originally Posted by blue-coupe

Well, if past performance is any indication of future results, then no, I have no faith.

Clearly, past performance is no predictor of future returns. I see that disclaimer all the time.

[toofasttooslow]

The points made about pursuing the 90210 lifestyles are spot on. Not everybody was meant to drive a new BMW or have a nice house in the burbs, but the banks were literally lending to anybody with a heartbeat for the past 5 years.

We've all seen it;all had friends that have bragged or laughed about their ability to get a house with no money down, no security collateral, and interest only 5 year ARM's with balloon payments that they assumed they'd be able to refi before that time. Now they're the ones causing a lot of this (but not all)grief.

As far as holding individual homeowners liable I completely agree. Maybe then people would get pissed off enough to do something about all of this. It's time to stop being the lambs we have been for so long and start becoming lions.

The banks have so far been unscathed by all of this. Going bankrupt you say? Well then son, let the Federal Reserve bail you out. You can keep your high priced job on the board of directors, but the common stock holders are screwed. Forget about that 401k you thought was safely tucked away in large cap stocks.

Can't turn a profit as a major US automaker? Well let's give you a boost so you can keep afloat until you earn enough money to screw the environment, government and the citizens again effectively.


Who here has not seen this coming? Who thinks the timing of Mr. Greenspan's departure was a coincidence to one of the largest banking blunders ever?


As an aside:

I used to think that all those people spouting about Federal Reserve and the conspiracies around it's formation, function and future were just nutjobs trying to get attention.

Now... I'm not so sure.

There is a whole lot of money/power centralized in a relatively small (Federal Reserve)group now. The monetary checks and balances are vanishing very quickly now (almost as quickly as our constitutional rights).

[scottwww]

Originally Posted by gum5h03

I used to think that all those people spouting about Federal Reserve and the conspiracies around it's formation, function and future were just nutjobs trying to get attention.

Now... I'm not so sure.

There is a whole lot of money/power centralized in a relatively small (Federal Reserve)group now. The monetary checks and balances are vanishing very quickly now (almost as quickly as our constitutional rights).

Just a few months ago, I didn't take so seriously the issues we face in our government, business, and international entanglements. Since then, not being satisfied with the party line that I was traditionally so quick to accept, I have been less biased against other ideas. By looking at these concerns (popularized by Ron Paul and others), I have come to share their concern.

Don't let the kook factor disuade you. It did put me off when seeing Ron Paul in the presidential debates. But I now recognize that it was a combination of factors that created that impression. First, it was my world view. I saw the world through the eyes of establishment politics (specifically Republican). Anything that was significantly different than that was bizarre, or at least kook fringe material.

The furthest outside my bubble that I could understand was the Democrats. Truely they are not that different than Republicans. It is only details that end up as talking points to contest that makes them seem different. Fundamentally, they are twins.

The Republicans and the Democrats feed off each other just deepening the dependence on these two political parties. It is made to make it seem like we have a choice. Really, they make the rules and we choose among very similar pablum. Together, they have made third party candidates out to be kooks. If it were true that third parties were on the kook fringe left, or the kook fringe right, then what does that make the Republicans and Democrats? It certainly doesn't make either of them far left or far right. It makes them mainstream and very much alike.

From the perspective of the Constitution Party, the Republicans and the Democrats both represent the leaning toward tyranny. Libertarians and Constitutionalists are further toward the anarchy side of the scale. Constitutionalists seek balance believing that the major parties are not near the balance point. We do not want anarchy, but we want to be a lot closer to it. It is called freedom and liberty.

[scottwww]

We all hear about the biased media. This had a tremendous impact on the perception I had of Ron Paul in the debates. The questions were asked in a way that were designed to make Ron Paul look like a kook. The question had no time to discuss a complex issue, especially one that the public understands only vaguely.

The idea that comes across in these debates is that we are talking about the important issues. However, this is on the foundational idea that we are fundamentally OK. It's just details that need to be tweaked.

Once you can accept the idea that there are fundamental flaws that go much deeper than any one man, or any one congress, then we can start to look deeper. The problems we face are multi-generational. It took us a long time to get here. It will take time and effort to get out of it.

Any movement has a starting point. I believe this is a movement that is gaining some momentum. Hopefully, it doesn't get cut short. It is the two major parties that would cut it short. They are for the status quo. They only change enough to make it seem like they are doing something, when in reality they are protecting what they have.

[toofasttooslow]

Here is another bad sign.

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/finan.../D9345FS80.htm

[toofasttooslow]

Originally Posted by Laszlo

Educate yourself on the Great Depression timeline - month by month - and you'll be freaked by the parallels of what's happening today. Did you know Ben Bernanke is an absolute expert on the Great Depression? Actually, he is the only true expert and he was put in place for a reason.

And after the crash of 1929, it took over two-years for the system to collapse. When 1930 rolled around by summer the market gained all its losses back. And during that time, from March to August the commodities market "exploded" and crashed at the end of the summer of 1930. Unemployment was just tipping into a high 7% and then 8%. But it wasn't until 1932 when unemployment hit 15% and the rest is history.

Nonetheless, we're following the timeline to the tee and just be ready for much worse conditions to come. But remember, the Great Depression wasn't broad, it affected areas up the East Coast, deep South and inland to Chicago - mostly industrial and rural areas. States that were able to recover quickly were Florida and California - progressive states that were not industry heavy.

I have a feeling you are right. Once unemployment starts to rise lookout. The only thing holding this economy up right now is our tax dollars, our spending and our debt leveraging.

Commodities could very well be next - or at least the very profitable Jim Chanos seems to think so.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/26642054
"The way some money managers are talking it looks like the worst of the storm may have passed for the financials. Legendary short seller Jim Chanos has shifted some of his focus away from the battered group and is now looking at commodities."