[Cdnrockies]

Originally Posted by TheRox

Its a nice entry though. But by no means cutting edge. Technically the Ferrari 458 is a league below the LF-A (LF-A is CGT territory technically, but CGT came out centuries ago)...yet you'll find few who'd rather an LF-A over a 458.

Have you driven the 458?

It is certainly not the end all and be all of supercars. I drove one on the track a few weeks ago. While it's interior is nice, the LF A seems to be a step ahead. While it's exhaust note is nice, again the LF A is superior. The 458 is light and quick but the steering is not connected enough and almost jumpy ( the instructors who drive it every day also agreed with this ). All of the reviews from the professional drivers who have piloted the LF A state that it is highly engaging and perfectly balanced.

I obviously haven't driven the LF A, but I'd likely choose it over the 458 if the reviews from the professionals are accurate. Heck, I'd choose the Scud over the 458 in a heartbeat even though the 458 is lighter, more powerful, faster, newer and has the more luxurious and technologically advanced interior.

[NewYearsBoy]

The 458 is enzo fast... If you are comparing the 458 to the LFA....

458>LFA....

I Still love the LFA and it is a unique car... I just hope someone orders it in some crazy color-way that they have on the Lexus site...

[NewYearsBoy]

Originally Posted by ianbiz

i saw a yellow in orlando a couple months ago. do want, but in the IS-F blue or that red.

Really haven't seen any yet and rally didn't plan too.... Way overpriced...

[TheRox]

Originally Posted by Cdnrockies

Have you driven the 458?

It is certainly not the end all and be all of supercars. I drove one on the track a few weeks ago. While it's interior is nice, the LF A seems to be a step ahead. While it's exhaust note is nice, again the LF A is superior. The 458 is light and quick but the steering is not connected enough and almost jumpy ( the instructors who drive it every day also agreed with this ). All of the reviews from the professional drivers who have piloted the LF A state that it is highly engaging and perfectly balanced.

I obviously haven't driven the LF A, but I'd likely choose it over the 458 if the reviews from the professionals are accurate. Heck, I'd choose the Scud over the 458 in a heartbeat even though the 458 is lighter, more powerful, faster, newer and has the more luxurious and technologically advanced interior.

I'm forgetting the price difference between an LFA and a 458 Italia? Is there one?

Its about the relative benefit. I've heard similar things said about the 458 though...it is quite electronic and disconnected. I still feel a vehicle is about the total package, and that includes the aural and visual excitement, quality of connection with the driver, performance etc.

Realistically speaking, performance in terms of power isn't even that important -- I just read that someone in an X6M was caught doing 240 kmph and fined 3 grand in Quebec -- I'm not a fan of excessive power. 300 HP is plenty enough to hit 200 kmph fast...let alone 500 HP+.

As a sports car -- should engage you visually and excite you, connect with you, among other things.

This is my one issue with the Porsche Carerra - it looks bloody ugly for the price, the engine is in the wrong spot...but it drives like a dream! We have the panamera, its its quite nice.

I don't know much about the LFA -- but visually it just isn't there. Its engine though from the vids i've seen...would be a beauty to have 6MT. Alas, its a paddle shiftty.

[330CIZHP]

For one, I want this whole 458 vs LFA debate to stay off this thread since this is about production LFAs now being delivered to customers.

I have posted evidence on this thread patiently to show how they did when compared head to head by people who drove the cars back to back and LFA is definitely more special than 458 Italia. It is a step above the 458 Italia. Again by people who have driven and experienced both cars back to back. LFA's V10 already beat the 458 Italia V8 in the best engine category simply because it is a much more exciting engine.

The only place where I read most reviews say 458 Italia is substantially superior to LFA is on the city streets where stiffness of the carbon fiber chassis of LFA is a handful over bumpy roads. But, who buys cars like these to get their groceries?

I remember when Carrera GT and Enzo came out, the Ford GT for only $150,000 matched these two cars on everything, yet no one said Carrera GT and Enzo are underperformers for their price tags.

LFA prototype already had won the comparison over the 599 GTB with HGTE handling package in a direct comparison (which is the true competitor in terms of luxury).

While 458 Italia looks just any other Ferrari (I have seen one in real life and it looks like an evolution of F430), LFA's presence is simply difficult to match. It looks 10x more special to me personally.

I could write an entire paragraph stating why LFA is substantially superior to 458 Italia, but that is not the point of this thread.

p.s. Comparing a base model stripped 458 Italia price makes no sense with a fully loaded LFA at $375,000. With even less luxury after adding all of the options available, the 458 Italia costs $290,000 versus a fully loaded standard LFA's $375,000.

Sascha Bert, AutoBild (August 2010) test driver and 24-hour endurance racer:

LFA was born to be raced on the 'ring [Nurburgring]

The Stig of TopGear:

Amazing track weapon, super-stiff chassis makes it extremely sensitive to inputs...V10 engine has power everywhere and delivery to make the most of that...brakes powerful but don't interfere...lots of grip in slow and fast corners..full balance into...through, out of corners. What's Lexus? Does it also make fridges?

Evo UK:

There is nothing in the world like the Lexus LFA. It is more special and intriguing than the 458 and demonstrates an extraordinary level of passion and commitment. Bespoke and limited edition, it is also a genuine supercar that can scare the pants off you. This is mainly thanks to it's extraordinary 552bhp 4.8-litre V10 that does everything a Carrera GT's does and then goes completely mad as it closes in on 9500rpm. Its uncompromising ride adds to the challenge, and it was generally agreed that it would have been a bit of a handful up on the moors,
but we were beguiled. "It's a beautiful thing, all the details, and it has the integrity and functionality of a Lexus. Feels like a step up from everything else here," said Meaden. "Very, very special," said Metcalfe. Thank you, Lexus.

"There is nothing out there that has ever felt this special since the Macca F1", says Chris Harris.

[Cdnrockies]

Originally Posted by TheRox

As a sports car -- should engage you visually and excite you, connect with you, among other things.

This is my one issue with the Porsche Carerra - it looks bloody ugly for the price, the engine is in the wrong spot...but it drives like a dream! We have the panamera, its its quite nice.

I don't know much about the LFA -- but visually it just isn't there. Its engine though from the vids i've seen...would be a beauty to have 6MT. Alas, its a paddle shiftty.

Both your comments about the Carrera and the LF A talk about looks. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but it's purely subjective and there will never be full agreement amongst the masses. I personally love the Panamera but know many who think it looks like ass. The 458 is "nice" but not a design homerun by any stretch.

The 911 is one of the most iconic sports cars of all time. I think Porsche knows where the engine should be.

This whole 6MT argument is lame. Even the best drivers will make a mistake once in a while. The new DCT/PDK's are flat out faster than the manuals and never, ever miss. The argument that they are less engaging is ridiculous. Go drive a supercar with paddles and I'm sure you won't miss the manual tranny at all. They're hard enough to handle without the third pedal making it even more difficult.

Btw, why would you have bought a Pana if you're so pro-6MT since they're only offered with PDK?

[330CIZHP]

Agreed. I personally like LFA design A LOT as it is very original and pictures don't real do it justice. I have also seen 458 Italia in real life. It looks like an evolution of the F430. I just cannot get over the very short hood of the car. The very short hood kind of reminds me of one of those econoboxes these days where the cabin sits almost over the front axle.

LFA's cabin sitting almost over the rear axle and the long hood with short overhangs proportions are just to die for. Again, subjective and what I personally like more.

Originally Posted by Cdnrockies

Both your comments about the Carrera and the LF A talk about looks. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but it's purely subjective and there will never be full agreement amongst the masses. I personally love the Panamera but know many who think it looks like ass. The 458 is "nice" but not a design homerun by any stretch.

The 911 is one of the most iconic sports cars of all time. I think Porsche knows where the engine should be.

This whole 6MT argument is lame. Even the best drivers will make a mistake once in a while. The new DCT/PDK's are flat out faster than the manuals and never, ever miss. The argument that they are less engaging is ridiculous. Go drive a supercar with paddles and I'm sure you won't miss the manual tranny at all. They're hard enough to handle without the third pedal making it even more difficult.

Btw, why would you have bought a Pana if you're so pro-6MT since they're only offered with PDK?

[blue2fire]

I dont get why people have to "not like" and defend a ridiculously low volume car. No one here clearly owns one, is highly unlikely to drive one or even see it around.

It is expensive and relatively slow but the people that have one wouldn't care. It is the most unencumbered and possibly the most passionate car the Japanese have seen in this decade, good enough reason for it to exist.

[330CIZHP]

The only cars that can outperform the LFA around the track are stripped down track cars like 599 GTO, GT2 RS, MacLaren MPC and that is an apples to oranges comparison. The power/torque delivery right up to 9500 rpm on the other hand has received nothing, but praises.

LFA production and prototypes only come with street tires for both dry and wet traction (Potenza S001) unlike most supercars that come with track tires like Michelin Pilot SS, Pirelli Corsa, Dunlop DSST S600. That is a huge factor.

I am sure production LFAs will be put through its paces in the next few months versus other supercars and that would make it clear.


CarAndDriver:

"The Lexus feels more athletic than the Ferrari, and its performance is more accessible, more immediately. The engine is remarkable. Austin noted: “They  figured out the engine. It’s really strong, and then you hit about 6500 rpm and your eyes get all big as the power hits another level.” The only street-car engine that matches this one for smoothness, ecstatic noise, and power delivery is the 458 Italia’s."

[Inspired]

I bet if the LF-A was made in Germany no one would have any problem with it.

[michaelthepsycho]

Originally Posted by TheRox

I'm forgetting the price difference between an LFA and a 458 Italia? Is there one?

At this price bracket, money doesn't really matter. The 458 is a rich man's Toyota (so to speak), much like the LFA.

Originally Posted by TheRox

Its about the relative benefit. I've heard similar things said about the 458 though...it is quite electronic and disconnected. I still feel a vehicle is about the total package, and that includes the aural and visual excitement, quality of connection with the driver, performance etc.

Like you stated, the 458 has been repeatedly reviewed as a bit light and artificial. I don't think the LFA has been pegged that yet. So, wouldn't you be more inclined to support the Lexus?

Originally Posted by TheRox

Realistically speaking, performance in terms of power isn't even that important -- I just read that someone in an X6M was caught doing 240 kmph and fined 3 grand in Quebec -- I'm not a fan of excessive power. 300 HP is plenty enough to hit 200 kmph fast...let alone 500 HP+.

I agree. Keep in mind the LFA is pretty reined-in on horsepower. a 4.8 liter V10 means that is has a per-cylinder displacement less than most road cars; a high-revver. I do not, for one moment, doubt that Lexus could've gone the AMG route and go for the "no replacement for displacement" mantra. It was meant as a whole package.

Originally Posted by TheRox

As a sports car -- should engage you visually and excite you, connect with you, among other things.

This is where I disagree with you the most. You can digest a Panamera but not the LFA? Sure, the front end looks a little funky but Lexus had to do that to aerodynamically achieve the top speed they were looking for. Whereas the Panamera is the opposite; looks great from the front but the rear quarter view is just horrendous.

Originally Posted by TheRox

This is my one issue with the Porsche Carerra - it looks bloody ugly for the price, the engine is in the wrong spot...but it drives like a dream! We have the panamera, its its quite nice.

Mid-engined is wrong? Did you mean in terms of Porsche? The Panamera's front-engined too; is that wrong?

Originally Posted by TheRox

I don't know much about the LFA -- but visually it just isn't there. Its engine though from the vids i've seen...would be a beauty to have 6MT. Alas, its a paddle shiftty.

6MT would be an ill decision at this level of track performance. One gripe about it is that I believe it has too many amenities; too luxurious. More than 3,200 is not a good way to make a performance statement but I guess Lexus couldn't help being themselves, given their tech-loaded road-car offerings.

[330CIZHP]

x 2

Completely agree, though not many will admit.

Originally Posted by twinturbo335

I bet if the LF-A was made in Germany no one would have any problem with it.

I think he was not aware Porsche Carrera was mid-engined and thought it was actually rear-engined like 911. LOL

I have read all the details and directly from the chief engineer of LFA:

"the purpose of creating LFA was not the fastest supercar possible, but the most complete and driver oriented supercar we could possible make".

Again, while most RWD supercars these days have electronic side-to-side rear torque vectoring differentials, LFA relies only on the carbon fiber stiffness of the chassis, downforce and suspension to do the work as well as the front mid-engine weight distribution (52% rear and 48% front). It uses just a standard Torsen LSD.

Regarding automated manual, the official explanation is that Lexus was targetting unmatched throtle response, which required almost no internal inertia in addition to 10 individual throttle bodies. The only other car that has almost no internal inertia is the Porsche Carrera GT and such cars are a nightmare to manage since either you end up torching the rear tires or bog and stall off the line since slipping the clutch is like an on/off switch on such cars.

That is why LFA can get from idle to 9500 rpm in around 0.5 seconds.

The engine was right from the beginning decided to be a high-rev V10 with a rev limit around 9500 rpm. Lexus then decided on the displacement based on how quickly the cylinders need to be filled up to ensure fastest access to the rev limit so they settled for small displacement (per cylindrical capacity of only 480 cc) to get the maximum revs. The torque curve is also the broadest with over 90% of the peak torque available from 3000 - 9500 rpm.

Originally Posted by michaelthepsycho

6MT would be an ill decision at this level of track performance. One gripe about it is that I believe it has too many amenities; too luxurious. More than 3,200 is not a good way to make a performance statement but I guess Lexus couldn't help being themselves, given their tech-loaded road-car offerings.

[TheRox]

Originally Posted by michaelthepsycho

At this price bracket, money doesn't really matter. The 458 is a rich man's Toyota (so to speak), much like the LFA.



Like you stated, the 458 has been repeatedly reviewed as a bit light and artificial. I don't think the LFA has been pegged that yet. So, wouldn't you be more inclined to support the Lexus?



I agree. Keep in mind the LFA is pretty reined-in on horsepower. a 4.8 liter V10 means that is has a per-cylinder displacement less than most road cars; a high-revver. I do not, for one moment, doubt that Lexus could've gone the AMG route and go for the "no replacement for displacement" mantra. It was meant as a whole package.



This is where I disagree with you the most. You can digest a Panamera but not the LFA? Sure, the front end looks a little funky but Lexus had to do that to aerodynamically achieve the top speed they were looking for. Whereas the Panamera is the opposite; looks great from the front but the rear quarter view is just horrendous.



Mid-engined is wrong? Did you mean in terms of Porsche? The Panamera's front-engined too; is that wrong?



6MT would be an ill decision at this level of track performance. One gripe about it is that I believe it has too many amenities; too luxurious. More than 3,200 is not a good way to make a performance statement but I guess Lexus couldn't help being themselves, given their tech-loaded road-car offerings.

I see what you're saying and I agree ...I personally am a bigger fan of high-revving fast engines over power...like I said, after reading that post about a kid doing 240 in an X6M in Quebec...I'm not sure how much more power I want (300 HP is plenty).

Panamera is a different car man, its a family car that we use to commute to work and costco...its a wonderful car, but its not a sports car. Its a GT. Its unique and in the luxury segment, far too many people own 1 series and C classes...so an S and 7 just don't excite the way the used to. Plus the S is amaizng, but the 7 series is plain pathetic, it doesn't do anything on either a sporting or luxury level. the S is comfort and thensome!


I still go back to the overall package and I have the same gripe about the 911: I'm not sure the LFA excites on every level. I don't doubt its a great driving car...but I still feel a driver's car should have the option of 6MT.

I love the engine, like I said I prefer a GT3 over a 911 Turbo (though both look like excited frogs, and nowhere near as good looking as a 120 K car should be).

[TheRox]

Originally Posted by twinturbo335

I bet if the LF-A was made in Germany no one would have any problem with it.

Or Italy.

Probably, I know subconsciously a lot of people don't like Lexus or Japanese cars because they feel "they are made by asians" -- you guys know what I mean. I've seen it in Quebec many times here in Canada -- they would prefer to drive a German car as opposed to one made by Asians.

Yes the way the person said it, it was a race thing.

I also feel this is why some people are a little more than coming to Lexus' rescue in this thread time and time again, willing to argue any point to make the Japanese brand look good.

Many people have a predisposition to buying European...but thats another can of racism discussion.

[TheRox]

Originally Posted by Cdnrockies

Both your comments about the Carrera and the LF A talk about looks. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but it's purely subjective and there will never be full agreement amongst the masses. I personally love the Panamera but know many who think it looks like ass. The 458 is "nice" but not a design homerun by any stretch.

The 911 is one of the most iconic sports cars of all time. I think Porsche knows where the engine should be.

This whole 6MT argument is lame. Even the best drivers will make a mistake once in a while. The new DCT/PDK's are flat out faster than the manuals and never, ever miss. The argument that they are less engaging is ridiculous. Go drive a supercar with paddles and I'm sure you won't miss the manual tranny at all. They're hard enough to handle without the third pedal making it even more difficult.

Btw, why would you have bought a Pana if you're so pro-6MT since they're only offered with PDK?

Because some of us have families, and they cannot drive 6MT -- plus there is traffic. Anyways, Panamera aside -- its a familiy car, grocery getting, and drives to work its not a 458 Italia!


6MT is more about the feel, I know 6MT isn't the best way around a track -- but it feels fun -- I see the problem though, that engine is so fast it could be a problem.

I dish it out equally -- I still feel for the price, the 911 should look better; it looks like an excited frog! But it feels great and has the most soul of any car in that range, if only it looked as exciting as an R8 it would be a home run!

Like I said, think the LFA is amazing, a great car no doubt! The overall package just doesn't appeal as much as some others. I haven't driven one, so I can't comment there; I'm commenting more from a brand, exclusivity, and aesthetic POV. If the performance is that good, maybe it is worth it!

I personally love Lexus (from a Luxury POV)...one day I'd like to buy the wife an IS or GS or whatever, so long as I never have to drive it . But an LS460 -- I'll drive that anyday! Its like being on a plane, the thing just coddles you on air

[330CIZHP]

That is probably what the point was of the previous posts. We never have driven the LFA so we cannot comment on the "package not as appealling as others".

Someone who experienced it is in a much better position to compare it. I posted substantial proof of people who drove LFA and other leading supercars around the track and it has been quite unanimously said to be a step up from the one's it was compared with (mostly 458 Italia, SLS AMG, 599 GTB HGTE, LP570-4, '12 GTR, Evora, GT3 RS etc.).

Personally, the sound of the V10, 9500 rpm, throttle response alone and the interior separate from the rest that are compared with it. For me, these are the main things that truly made it stand out for me.

Here is hollywood celebrity and comedian (who has owned many exotics) test driving the LFA and yet it is consistent with what other tests have said:

[TheRox]

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

That is the thing. You never have driven the LFA so you cannot comment on the "package not as appealling as others".

Someone who experienced it is in a much better position to compare it. I posted all the proof of people who drove LFA and other leading supercars around the track and it has been quite unanimously said to be a step up from the one's it was compared with (mostly 458 Italia, SLS AMG, LP570-4, '12 GTR, Evora, GT3 RS etc.).

In my opinion, the sound of the V10, 9500 rpm and the throttle response alone separate from the rest that are compared with it.

Here is hollywood celebrity and comedian (who has owned many exotics) test driving the LFA and yet it is consistent with what other tests have said:

We can all post videos man. You haven't driven it either.

Just ease up, no need to blindly support a car just because its made in Asia. I like Lexus, but the LFA just doesn't feel like a great car, doesn't look it, and isn't priced at the right point for a Lex.

[330CIZHP]

Originally Posted by TheRox

Just ease up, no need to blindly support a car just because its made in Asia. I like Lexus, but the LFA just doesn't feel like a great car, doesn't look it, and isn't priced at the right point for a Lex.

Well, my support for LFA is based on it being a great car. That is what it is. Someone who says 'it is not priced right because it is a Lexus' is what I call a typical 'Euro Snob'. You have no business on this thread when you say 'it is not priced right for a Lexus'. The price point of a car is determined based on what the R&D and production costs are for the car. Not by what brand makes it. By that account, a VW Bugatti Veyron should never cost $1.2 million when it is only a VW. No one ever says that.

The 'blind support' nonsense is complete ridiculous considering I drive a German car and have had no major issues with it in the last 4 years.

What does the Top Gear review mean? Lexus LFA was one of the 5 'Greatest supercars of 2010' for TopGear and when The Stig was asked about his most favorite car around the track, he picked the Lexus LFA.

In the wet, it ran a 1:22 (with Stig 'gingerly on the throttle') and they know it well using Top Gear's formula in the dry on their web site that the difference would have been between 4 - 5 seconds, it would have been one of the fastest dry lap around the TopGear track.



The Stig:

"LFA is a Stig type of car"

"Amazing track weapon, super-stiff chassis makes it extremely sensitive to inputs...V10 engine has power everywhere and delivery to make the most of that...brakes powerful but don't interfere...lots of grip in slow and fast corners..food balance into...through, out of corners. What's Lexus? Does it also make fridges?"

So there you have it. Lexus LFA is indeed one of the greatest supercars of today.

[TheRox]

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

Well, my support for LFA is based on it being a great car. That is what it is. Someone who says 'it is not priced right because it is a Lexus' is what I call a typical 'Euro Snob'. You have no business on this thread when you say 'it is not priced right for a Lexus'.

The 'blind support' nonsense is complete ridiculous considering I drive a German car and have had no major issues with it in the last 4 years.

What does the Top Gear review mean? Lexus LFA was one of the 5 'Greatest supercars of 2010' for TopGear and when The Stig was asked about his most favorite car around the track, he picked the Lexus LFA.

In the wet, it ran a 1:22 (with Stig 'gingerly on the throttle') and they know it well using Top Gear's formula in the dry on their web site that the difference would have been between 4 - 5 seconds, it would have been one of the fastest dry lap around the TopGear track.



The Stig:





So there you have it. Lexus LFA is indeed one of the greatest supercars of today.

It is and I'm not denying it -- like I said, I'm a big Lex fan, esp the LS 460 - marvelous machine esp if bought used. A real gem.


Brand and badge does matter; its part of the ownership experience, ask anyone who buys an aston martin Sound and badge and image/aesthetics are the only reasons for owning that car.

A Lex badge is usually something people associate with buying at a discount -- often used because they are so reliable.

Believe me I love Lex, I'm just saying what other people here are trying to say -- no matter what, brand and badge is a PART (a small part, but a part) of the ownership experience.

As a machine, no doubt its amazing. No doubts. But as a package? There are doubts, many of them.

As a billionaire, its a great thing to have in my shed; as my only sports car...there would be doubts. You really need to synthesize the whole picture, go beyond base engineering -- which I respect, but the whole picture is how you buy a car.

[330CIZHP]

A very well reputed European journalist and professional precision driver Thomas Bangma on his drive of the LFA:

[TheRox]

Originally Posted by 330CIZHP

A very well reputed European journalist and professional precision driver Thomas Bangma on his drive of the LFA:

Maybe the best car he has ever driven...but would you buy one versus the other options?

Its about the ownership experience too, not just the numbers...esp if you don't plan on tracking the damn thing.

[330CIZHP]

I guess, Lexus has sold nearly all of the 500 LFAs Lexus plans to build so that discussion is quite futile, the way I see it. That is what I created this thread for. To show people taking deliveries of their LFA (one of whom in Costa Rica is a professional race car driver). The silver one has already made an appearance in a 'Cars and coffee' and it drew huge crowds shutting almost the entire meet.

I know for a fact, in Canada all 10 were sold in only month to customers. 1 of which is coming to Calgary and I hope to see it on the road somewhere. There is 1 going to Montreal as well. 6 of them are going to customers in Vancouver. LOL

Originally Posted by TheRox

Maybe the best car he has ever driven...but would you buy one versus the other options?

Its about the ownership experience too, not just the numbers...esp if you don't plan on tracking the damn thing.