[M2siast]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Personally I prefer the European system.

Employers in Europe are required to pay their employees mandatory minimum wages. Otherwise they risk serious financial penalties and a criminal crackdown on their business. Hence, over here the waitress serving you a meal or the guy flipping a burger for you get properly paid and get social security benefits + they don't need to 'beg' a customer for helping them out with their indecent wages paid by their bosses: no embarrassing or discomforting scenes at the time of payment.

In Europe tipping is mostly no standard practice: you don't feel morally 'pressed' or even 'intimidated' to pay a tip and in most cases you won't be considered disrespectful or greedy if you don't leave a tip. Some waiters may think differently about it and expect a bonus at the end of a meal. Of course, also think long term: if you're known by restaurant staff to be a (very) appreciative client, you may get some perks (better table, extra service, more smiles, etc.). Give a bouncer nothing and he may remember you the next time around - give a bouncer a few euro coins and he will remember you the next time around - give a bouncer a €5 or €10 bill and he will certainly remember you the next time around.

You are free to leave a few euros on the table after your meal (cash = bigger chance that the waiter or waitress will get the money, but they can have a deal with their boss that all tips will line the pockets of the boss only) or to ask adding a small extra to the bill (for example rounding up: a €152 bill rounded up to €160 = €8 tip) as some sort of true/genuine bonus to express your gratitude for excellent service. However, if you leave, say, a €50 or €100 euro bill, on the table for the waitress, she will definitely appreciate the extraordinary bonus, but may equally suspect that you fancy her too much (making a pass on her) or that you're a 'show off' or a foreign tourist who is unaware of the local standard practice.

In Italy "coperto" (cutlery) exists for centuries. When Italian travelers stopped at an inn to seek shelter or cover during harsh weather but brought their own food in, they paid to use shared items (plates, silverware, tables and chairs). Nowadays "coperto" normally ranges from €2 to €4 per person in Italian sit-in restaurants. It is separately indicated on the bill. In reality it's nowadays some sort of automatically included tip.

Over here in Europe we got the 'Value Added Tax' system (see https://taxation-customs.ec.europa.eu/what-vat_en). The standard VAT rate varies per European country, ranging between 16% (Luxemburg) and 27% (Hungary) (see https://www.globalvatcompliance.com/...n-europe-2021/). You cannot opt out of VAT - it's mandatory. Well, if for Canadian and US bars and restaurants mandatory standard taxes + 20%-ish "tips" + 3%-ish "credit card payment fee" + "a donation for our staff" becomes the moral norm for you in the US and Canada: well, there you'll have your VAT equivalent. OK, unlike VAT you can opt out of tips and donations, but you can feel pushed to cough up, especially if you plan to revisit the place (as in my bouncer example above).

Attachment 3251811

To me, this is the whole premise of this thread and where the rub lies.

It used to be the case servers got paid LESS lawfully in anticipation of receiving tips.

It largely isn’t the case anymore, and servers are now making minimum wage (not less than).
Coincidentally, and ironically, as soon as this became true, OTHER people who ALWAYS made minimum wage started asking for tips too.

It’s upside down, and it’ll hurt actual servers in the long run.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by M2siast

To me, this is the whole premise of this thread and where the rub lies.

It used to be the case servers got paid LESS lawfully in anticipation of receiving tips.

It largely isn’t the case anymore, and servers are now making minimum wage (not less than).
Coincidentally, and ironically, as soon as this became true, OTHER people who ALWAYS made minimum wage started asking for tips too.

It’s upside down, and it’ll hurt actual servers in the long run.

It is still the case in the U.S. The issue is that those historically and currently making more than the minimum wage for tipped employees (i.e., making "regular" minimum wage or more) are now expecting tips because their iPad checkout tells them they should. Fast food employees make "regular" minimum wage or better and have never been tipped historically (other than maybe throwing spare change in a cup), yet some are expecting it now at 20%+.

I have no issues tipping a waiter in a sit down restaurant. Nothing has changed there to me.

[M2siast]

Originally Posted by RickFLM4

It is still the case in the U.S. The issue is that those historically and currently making more than the minimum wage for tipped employees (i.e., making "regular" minimum wage or more) are now expecting tips because their iPad checkout tells them they should. Fast food employees make "regular" minimum wage or better and have never been tipped historically (other than maybe throwing spare change in a cup), yet some are expecting it now at 20%+.

I have no issues tipping a waiter in a sit down restaurant. Nothing has changed there to me.

Agreed. I should qualify I’m referring to the trend of paying minimum across the board without differentiation.

Canada used to have lower wages for tipped staff. No longer. Same across the board. Just asked Bing about the US and these states have moved in this direction as well, and more should join soon. What’s funny as I mentioned is that with this trend, the iPad tip jar came along:

“According to the web search results, the states in America that do NOT have lower minimum wage for restaurant and bar servers that rely on tips are:
Alaska: The state minimum wage is $10.85 per hour, which applies to both tipped and non-tipped employees1.
California: The state minimum wage is $15.50 per hour, which applies to both tipped and non-tipped employees1.
Minnesota: The state minimum wage varies by employer size, but it applies to both tipped and non-tipped employees. The minimum wage for large employers (with annual gross revenues of $500,000 or more) is $10.59 per hour, and the minimum wage for small employers (with annual gross revenues of less than $500,000) is $8.63 per hour1.
Montana: The state minimum wage is $9.95 per hour, which applies to both tipped and non-tipped employees. However, employers not covered by the Fair Labor Standards Act (FLSA) with gross annual sales of $110,000 or less can pay a lower minimum wage of $4.00 per hour1.
Nevada: The state minimum wage varies by whether the employer offers qualifying health insurance or not, but it applies to both tipped and non-tipped employees. The minimum wage for employees not offered qualifying health insurance by employer is $11.25 per hour, and the minimum wage for employees offered qualifying health insurance by employer is $10.25 per hour1.
Oregon: The state minimum wage varies by region, but it applies to both tipped and non-tipped employees. The minimum wage for the Portland metro area is $14.20 per hour, the minimum wage for the standard region is $13.50 per hour, and the minimum wage for the non-urban counties is $12.00 per hour1.
Washington: The state minimum wage is $15.74 per hour, which applies to both tipped and non-tipped employees1.
These are the states that do NOT have lower minimum wage for restaurant and bar servers as of July 1, 20231. However, some states may have plans to increase their minimum wage and/or minimum cash wage rates in the future1. Therefore, it is important to check the current laws and regulations in your state before working as a server or hiring one.”

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by M2siast

To me, this is the whole premise of this thread and where the rub lies.

It used to be the case servers got paid LESS lawfully in anticipation of receiving tips.

It largely isn’t the case anymore, and servers are now making minimum wage (not less than).
Coincidentally, and ironically, as soon as this became true, OTHER people who ALWAYS made minimum wage started asking for tips too.

It’s upside down, and it’ll hurt actual servers in the long run.

If all service providers jump the bandwagon, things will backfire.

If 'pushed' into paying a non mandatory service tax, then it should be called what it really is: "suggested service tax" or "suggested markup" instead of "suggested gratuity".

Imagine: "Pilots are preparing for final descent as we speak. They suggest an 18% gratuity for their service throughout this flight. Flight attendants will assist you for making the electronic payment shortly. Please VISA and Mastercard only."

[ezaircon4jc]

Originally Posted by Artemis

...
Imagine: "Pilots are preparing for final descent as we speak. They suggest an 18% gratuity for their service throughout this flight. Flight attendants will assist you for making the electronic payment shortly. Please VISA and Mastercard only."

I'm pretty sure that won't work. To quote a pilot when a dufas coworker of mine asked if he'd get down OK (he was a little high on the approach)... "haven't left one up here yet!"

Now, if one wants to tip a controller to be moved up in the sequence...

[Fredcohiba]

Wisconsin law states that servers must make a minimum wage of $2.33 per hour. If tips combined with the employer's wages of at least $2.33 per hour do not equal at least $7.25, the employer must make up the difference.

[vreihen16]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Imagine: "Pilots are preparing for final descent as we speak. They suggest an 18% gratuity for their service throughout this flight. Flight attendants will assist you for making the electronic payment shortly. Please VISA and Mastercard only."

I remember an airliner hijacking back in the days before get off my lawn, where the flight crew had to take up a collection from the passengers to buy the fuel necessary to fly home from the hijacker's foreign destination airport because the airline had no fuel contracts there......

[UncleWede]

Wife and I shared a mocajete last night, plus each had a soda. Total was around $35. I rounded up to $40 on the CC, and left a $5 on the table.

She brought me 2 refills, an extra basket of chips and salsa, and came by at least 4 times while our food was on the table, to see if we needed anything more.

[flybigjet]

Originally Posted by UncleWede

Wife and I shared a mocajete last night, plus each had a soda. Total was around $35. I rounded up to $40 on the CC, and left a $5 on the table.

She brought me 2 refills, an extra basket of chips and salsa, and came by at least 4 times while our food was on the table, to see if we needed anything more.

That's reasonable.

Tipping 20%+ for some random you *literally* have no interaction with (not talking back-staff), or walking in to a fast-food place, picking up a bag and walking out is NOT.

[Lady Jane]

Is that like a smoking section?

[Lady Jane]

Enter tip amount.

[RickFLM4]

Originally Posted by Lady Jane

Enter tip amount.


Attachment 3262545

-$7.78

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Personally I prefer the European system.

Employers in Europe are required to pay their employees mandatory minimum wages. Otherwise they risk serious financial penalties and a criminal crackdown on their business. Hence, over here the waitress serving you a meal or the guy flipping a burger for you get properly paid and get social security benefits + they don't need to 'beg' a customer for helping them out with their indecent wages paid by their bosses: no embarrassing or discomforting scenes at the time of payment.

In Europe tipping is mostly no standard practice: you don't feel morally 'pressed' or even 'intimidated' to pay a tip and in most cases you won't be considered disrespectful or greedy if you don't leave a tip. Some waiters may think differently about it and expect a bonus at the end of a meal. Of course, also think long term: if you're known by restaurant staff to be a (very) appreciative client, you may get some perks (better table, extra service, more smiles, etc.). Give a bouncer nothing and he may remember you the next time around - give a bouncer a few euro coins and he will remember you the next time around - give a bouncer a €5 or €10 bill and he will certainly remember you the next time around.

You are free to leave a few euros on the table after your meal (cash = bigger chance that the waiter or waitress will get the money, but they can have a deal with their boss that all tips will line the pockets of the boss only) or to ask adding a small extra to the bill (for example rounding up: a €152 bill rounded up to €160 = €8 tip) as some sort of true/genuine bonus to express your gratitude for excellent service. However, if you leave, say, a €50 or €100 euro bill, on the table for the waitress, she will definitely appreciate the extraordinary bonus, but may equally suspect that you fancy her too much (making a pass on her) or that you're a 'show off' or a foreign tourist who is unaware of the local standard practice.

In Italy "coperto" (cutlery) exists for centuries. When Italian travelers stopped at an inn to seek shelter or cover during harsh weather but brought their own food in, they paid to use shared items (plates, silverware, tables and chairs). Nowadays "coperto" normally ranges from €2 to €4 per person in Italian sit-in restaurants. It is separately indicated on the bill. In reality it's nowadays some sort of automatically included tip.

Over here in Europe we got the 'Value Added Tax' system (see https://taxation-customs.ec.europa.eu/what-vat_en). The standard VAT rate varies per European country, ranging between 16% (Luxemburg) and 27% (Hungary) (see https://www.globalvatcompliance.com/...n-europe-2021/). You cannot opt out of VAT - it's mandatory. Well, if for Canadian and US bars and restaurants mandatory standard taxes + 20%-ish "tips" + 3%-ish "credit card payment fee" + "a donation for our staff" becomes the moral norm for you in the US and Canada: well, there you'll have your VAT equivalent. OK, unlike VAT you can opt out of tips and donations, but you can feel pushed to cough up, especially if you plan to revisit the place (as in my bouncer example above).

Attachment 3251811

I’m an American and you’re going to miss me with that Frenchy stuff, but I’ll agree in spirit

[rbhjr01462]

Just came back from business trip to Japan. Not having the pressure to leave tips was nice - they actually feel somewhat insulted if you leave one (with a few situational exceptions).

[BMW F22]

Curious: do you guys tip Uber and Lyft drivers?

[M2siast]

Originally Posted by BMW F22

Curious: do you guys tip Uber and Lyft drivers?

Yes. Same as cab drivers. And any food delivery.

One day I hope it all goes away. Unbeknownst to these folks, the tip jar for anything will be what breaks the camel’s back and All will stop receiving any tip in the future (hopefully soon).