[The Automotive Enthusiast]

[The Automotive Enthusiast]

The rest here: http://www.autoevolution.com/news/20...ery-81791.html

[DieGrüneHölle]

New Z06 8-speed is now available on the Stingray. Going to make first year autos hard to sell.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Blipit_

New Z06 8-speed is now available on the Stingray. Going to make first year autos hard to sell.

An automatic sports car SHOULD be hard to sell. But I doubt this will make much of an impact, at least on the bozos that want a used, automatic Corvette.

[Petros]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

An automatic sports car SHOULD be hard to sell. .

M3, 911, Ferrari 458, etc have no problem selling well with an automatic gearbox.

[Never Convicted]

Originally Posted by Petros

M3, 911, Ferrari 458, etc have no problem selling well with an automatic gearbox.

Their gearboxes aren't made by GM.

[Petros]

Originally Posted by Never Convicted

Their gearboxes aren't made by GM.

So? What's your point?

[Never Convicted]

Originally Posted by Petros

So? What's your point?

http://www.bidnessetc.com/21935-gene...gh-mid-summer/

[Petros]

Originally Posted by Never Convicted

http://www.bidnessetc.com/21935-gene...gh-mid-summer/

Lots of talk about family cars, trucks, vans ,etc. No mention of Corvette automatic gearboxes. So I'm not sure the relevance.

[Never Convicted]

Originally Posted by Petros

Lots of talk about family cars, trucks, vans ,etc. No mention of Corvette automatic gearboxes. So I'm not sure the relevance.

You're right...it happened to every other car they make. Could never happen to the Vette.

[fecurtis]

Originally Posted by Never Convicted

You're right...it happened to every other car they make. Could never happen to the Vette.

You're right, luckily we own BMW's...and BMW's have never been recalled before right?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/...ecall/8449257/

I mean hell BMW just literally issued a recall a couple of hours ago:
http://wot.motortrend.com/recall_201...r_feature.html

http://www.automd.com/recall/bmw_m/

Recalls are common. GM is just getting more press because of what happened when it chose not to issue a recall...

[Petros]

Originally Posted by Never Convicted

You're right...it happened to every other car they make. Could never happen to the Vette.

Well, at least Vettes don't usually end up looking like this:

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Petros

M3, 911, Ferrari 458, etc have no problem selling well with an automatic gearbox.

The M3 and 911 at least come with three pedal options and dual clutch as an option. The Corvette is a regular torque convertor automatic, not a dual clutch. Ferrari has sold their soul, having driven a few gated shifter Fezzae, I will always miss that and really don't care what sort of baloney tie in they offer to F1 or chasing magazine numbers, manuals will always be my preference.

[Petros]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

The M3 and 911 at least come with three pedal options and dual clutch as an option. The Corvette is a regular torque convertor automatic, not a dual clutch. Ferrari has sold their soul, having driven a few gated shifter Fezzae, I will always miss that and really don't care what sort of baloney tie in they offer to F1 or chasing magazine numbers, manuals will always be my preference.

Not totally correct. Only the base 911 has a manual. The higher end versions, the Turbo, GT3, and upcoming GT2 are PDK only. Also the automatic on the new Vette is not some slushbox from a 20 year old buick. It's a bespoke unit made specifically for the Corvette and will have shift times faster than the PDK in a Porsche.

[Red Bread]

Does it have a torque converter? Let's just leave it at that, no matter how fast it is. It's got a heck of a lot more to do with a slushbox from a 20 year old Buick than it does with a DSG.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

The M3 and 911 at least come with three pedal options and dual clutch as an option. The Corvette is a regular torque convertor automatic, not a dual clutch. Ferrari has sold their soul, having driven a few gated shifter Fezzae, I will always miss that and really don't care what sort of baloney tie in they offer to F1 or chasing magazine numbers, manuals will always be my preference.

The TRUE motivation behind it is, in the BIGGEST market in the world, only about 10% of the population knows how to drive with 3 pedals. So for ANY manufacturer to offer a car in the United States that comes only in manual is plain stupid and potentially financial SUICIDE. You want to know what is the LOWEST selling mass produced BMW chassis in the last 15 years is? The MZ4 Coupe. It only comes in a manual 6 speed with 3 pedals. The exclusive Z8 roadster outsold it handily despite a limited production number, shorter production run, and 3X the price tag. They even offered the "Alpina" Z8 with an automatic transmission because people lost interest once they figured out they don't know how to drive it.

Even in Europe, at best only 50% of the populace can drive a stick. So for, say, Ferrari to NOT offer some sort of transmission where your average idiot driver (but with disposable income) can just hop in and drive is, again, stupid and financial suicide. They immediately eliminate 1/2 or more of their potential client base.

It's akin to Apple only making iPhones for left handers. Does not compute.

[Red Bread]

Does anyone recall that we were actually discussing the impact of the change from a six speed automatic to an eight speed and the direct value hit the first year six speed auto cars might feel? I still vote for nearly nil, as all those folks that can't manage to drive with both feet probably can't count all the way to six, much less eight, so they'll all be fine.

[CirrusSR22]

Originally Posted by Never Convicted

Their gearboxes aren't made by GM.

The GM autos have been good enough for BMW to be using for decades.

And the new 8 speed shifts faster than the Porsche PDK and will get the new Z06 around the 'ring faster than any 911, or any sub $1M Ferrari or Porsche.

[KingOfJericho]

Originally Posted by The HACK

The TRUE motivation behind it is, in the BIGGEST market in the world, only about 10% of the population knows how to drive with 3 pedals. So for ANY manufacturer to offer a car in the United States that comes only in manual is plain stupid and potentially financial SUICIDE. You want to know what is the LOWEST selling mass produced BMW chassis in the last 15 years is? The MZ4 Coupe. It only comes in a manual 6 speed with 3 pedals. The exclusive Z8 roadster outsold it handily despite a limited production number, shorter production run, and 3X the price tag. They even offered the "Alpina" Z8 with an automatic transmission because people lost interest once they figured out they don't know how to drive it.

I'll skip over the overly dramatic financial suicide part and to straight to the MZ4 Coupe. The assumption that it sold in low(ish) numbers due to the gearbox alone is a little silly. I think it has more to due with demographics and practicality. The car only had two seats which eliminates many buyers right off the top. The convertible MZ4 sold pretty well. It's hard to live with that car as a daily driver just based on space alone. The car had a shallow buyer pool of well off 20-somethings and track rats as nobody with a family could really enjoy it. The 6er appealed to anyone over 50 with some extra scratch.

The Z8 outsold it because it competed for an entirely different demographic. The Z8 was squarely targeted at the Mercedes SL crowd, many of whom had lost interest in driving a manual when they retired from the air force after WWII. It's really apples and oranges. One is targeted at wealthy retired folks while the other was aimed at performance oriented youngsters. It's just not a fair comparison.

Originally Posted by The HACK

Even in Europe, at best only 50% of the populace can drive a stick. So for, say, Ferrari to NOT offer some sort of transmission where your average idiot driver (but with disposable income) can just hop in and drive is, again, stupid and financial suicide. They immediately eliminate 1/2 or more of their potential client base.

It's akin to Apple only making iPhones for left handers. Does not compute.

Ferrari has a waiting list that is a multiple of what they can produce so the financial suicide angle simply does not apply here. They sold like crazy with a manual and would have continued doing so. The problem is that the company has so much pride in maintaining bragging rights (same reason we haven't seen the La Ferrari 'ring time) that when automatics started to outperform professional drivers with a manual, they wanted to keep pace/save face. Same reason they send ringer cars for shootouts.

The other element is that they spend hundreds of millions developing the technology for their F1 team that it makes sense for it to trickle down to the street cars. This also appeals to a portion of their demo. Ferrari doesn't have much interest in selling cars to the average idiot driver.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

The convertible MZ4 sold pretty well.

That is absolutely not true. There are only about 2,000 MZ4 roadsters in North America, and 1,800 MZ4 coupes. And the roadster was on the market for 6 more month. It ABSOLUTELY did not sell well. BMW had to cut back dramatically on their forecast and production and were practically giving these cars away. The roadster and coupe both had a $10,000 trunk cash incentive by 2007, the 2nd year of production. The 3.0Si roadster, on the other hand, sold well. In fact, 2007 and 2008 sales of the 3.0Si roadster outpaced the E89 sDrive35 significantly in the first 2 years of production.

The fact that with a $10,000 trunk cash, that the MZ4 Roadster would have been only $2,000 more than a equivalently equipped Z4 3.0Si Roadster but with 70 more HP and significantly more performance elsewhere, that the 3.0Si Roadster sold MORE in half a year than all 3 year's MZ4 Roadster production should shed light on the subject.

The 3.0Si Roadster is available in AUTOMATIC.

Originally Posted by KingOfJericho

Ferrari has a waiting list that is a multiple of what they can produce so the financial suicide angle simply does not apply here. They sold like crazy with a manual and would have continued doing so. The problem is that the company has so much pride in maintaining bragging rights (same reason we haven't seen the La Ferrari 'ring time) that when automatics started to outperform professional drivers with a manual, they wanted to keep pace/save face. Same reason they send ringer cars for shootouts.

The other element is that they spend hundreds of millions developing the technology for their F1 team that it makes sense for it to trickle down to the street cars. This also appeals to a portion of their demo. Ferrari doesn't have much interest in selling cars to the average idiot driver.

The argument that Ferrari's sold like crazy is laughable. Yes they sold just about every one built, but that's only because their production is limited. And their wait-list is 2x more than what they can build NOW attest to how well the manuamatics are attracting potential customers. Especially if you consider, that competitors with automatics in the same price range (Aston Martin) would have taken EVERY SINGLE ONE of those on the wait list that can't drive a stick.

And if you think Ferrari doesn't have much interest in selling cars to the average idiot car driver that has the disposable income to afford their cars, you clearly do not understand business and marketing.

[Petros]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Does it have a torque converter? Let's just leave it at that, no matter how fast it is. It's got a heck of a lot more to do with a slushbox from a 20 year old Buick than it does with a DSG.

You don't seem to know much about car design or engineering, and keep repeating the snobbish tired old crap Euro car "enthusiasts" often repeat. So let me explain simply, the 8L90 auto in the corvette is a SUPERIOR gearbox to the double clutch gearbox in a 911 or an M3.

Firstly, torque converters are much smoother on engagement than the somewhat clunky double clutch units and are thus more refined in daily driving.
Secondly, when starting from a stop and the torque converter is slipping, it multiplies torque and helps the car accelerate from a stop a bit faster than a clutch unit.
Thirdly, torque converter autos are simpler and more reliable, not to mention cheaper to fix than DCT trannys.
Fourthly, a torque converter auto usually is more durable and handles more torque than a DCT, which is one of the reasons why many DCT cars are limited in how much tuning and power upgrade you can do.
And fifthly, the only real reason why DCT took off in performance cars recently was because no one can get a torque converter automatic to shift quickly enough to keep up with a DCT, so the DCT had a performance edge. That changed with the new 8L90, chevy figured out how to make it shift even faster than the PDK in the Porsche.

[Petros]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Does anyone recall that we were actually discussing the impact of the change from a six speed automatic to an eight speed and the direct value hit the first year six speed auto cars might feel? I still vote for nearly nil, as all those folks that can't manage to drive with both feet probably can't count all the way to six, much less eight, so they'll all be fine.

You obviously seem to have some repressed hatred of automatic drivers. Funny thing is I don't see a manual car in your garage list. You have an X1, only available in automatic, and a bicycle.