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      03-17-2014, 03:33 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Litos View Post
so yeah, you can thank A LOT of young adults for keeping your ass safe over the last 250 years, because 40% of the MOST ELITE MILITARY IN THE WORLD is composed of this "shoot first, ask questions later" crowd.....

you're welcome by the way......
Let's be honest. Military service usually doesn't come out of some pure patriotic duty...



Quote:
also, keeps our citizens from being victimized as much as other people in major states and/or metropolitan areas...
Right right!

Houston Violent Crime Rate (incidents per 1000 residents):
9.97

Los Angeles Violent Crime Rate (incidents per 1000 residents):
4.83

http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/tx/houston/crime/
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      03-17-2014, 04:07 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by MediaArtist View Post
You're right, it does sound like I'm trashing the South, but really that's where the bulk of the far right actually live so rest assured, I'm talking about the people who are part of the shoot first, ask questions later crowd, not the entire region. If you don't fall into that category of gun toting psycho, I'm not talking about you.

Also, I fully admit, there aren't really any "facts" when it comes to this case, we can only go by what's reported. Those things I listed are things that have been reported from different news agencies. The general consensus seems to be:

1) The kid wasn't an unknown intruder
2) The kid didn't have a weapon, so not sure why he would reach for a phantom weapon...
3) The kid died

That doesn't seem to fit justifiable homicide and a proper application of deadly force. You can bet if this father is eventually charged with homicide, the liberal left will parade this incident around as a reason why guns need to be "more regulated".
Totally agree here. Any shooting that didn't need to happen, justifiable by the law or not, gives the liberal left more ammo. Pardon the pun.
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      03-17-2014, 05:10 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by MediaArtist View Post
When I think of neo conservatisim, and then think "Hmm, would these be the type of jerks who would shoot first, ask questions later?" It seems a very easy connection to make, though admittedly, mostly tongue-in-cheek.


Who said I was "ranting against Texas"? I certainly never criticized Texas as a state. You may have missed the point because this isn't about Texas, this is about people knowing the proper application of deadly force. Just judging by this thread, very few people actually know the laws that govern deadly force in their own state. As for facts...



The article you read is complete bullshit (excuse my French), and full of piss poor reporting. All the major news outlets have reported these facts (CNN, Fox, USA Today):
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/03/15...urder-charges/
http://www.khou.com/news/local/Deput...250041711.html

1) The girl was DATING Johran.
2) The girl let Johran into the home.
3) The father heard "sounds" coming from the bedroom (not some made up story about a 4 year old kid seeing feet under the bed), and went to investigate. Let's be honest, the sounds were sex sounds.
4) The father went to confront the teenager with GUN DRAWN.
5) The father caught Johran in bed with his daughter. He got out and was to the side of the bed.
6) Some dialog occurred, perhaps arguing (no exact details). I'm guessing the boy was trying to let the guy know who let him in the house and why he wasn't some random intruder.
7) The father CLAIMS Johran made a sudden movement with his hands.

The last part is highly suspect since Johran didn't have any weapon on him when police carted his body away from the house.

So which has the ring of truth?

1) Johran, not scared of a man with a loaded weapon pointed at his head, reaches for a PHANTOM weapon he doesn't have, and ends up getting himself shot.

2) Johran, afraid of a man with a loaded weapon, gets shot by an angry father who wants to hurt a boy who just fucked his daughter.



Of course I would call the police. Unlike the neo-con hill billies in the South, I don't shoot first, ask questions later. I have a loaded 9mm pistol by the bed stand in a digital safe that I pull out. I assess the situation. I make sure my kids and wife are safe and out of harms way. You see, it's more important to me that my family is safe, and protected, than it is for me to fill someone full of bullets so I can scream "Yee haw!" and tell my friends about how I capped someone at the local dive bar. The right to own a gun is a responsibility, and the laws that govern deadly force in California and Texas are very clear. I wish the neo-con warhawks knew this, and treated gun ownership with respect instead of like a child's toy.
Your neo-con comment wasn't tongue-in-cheek at all.

Perhaps "gun-crazy Texas" led me to believe it was a rant against Texas? And reinforced by the "Yee-Haw" comment?

Sorry - wish I had read all the clearly-written, articulate articles you read, instead of the piss-poor ones I read. Oh - wait the KHOU article you posted said: "Her younger brother went to say good night and saw two feet sticking out under the bed, detectives said. He then went to get his father." And the Fox article was a summary of the KHOU story...

Your subsequent bullet points are full of your suppositions, from which you jump to your conclusions. Do you have any articles I can read?
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      03-18-2014, 08:16 AM   #48
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      03-18-2014, 08:44 AM   #49
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      03-18-2014, 08:56 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MediaArtist View Post
Let's be honest. Military service usually doesn't come out of some pure patriotic duty...
and service members don't get into the military to become rich either, so your point was salty..........and grainy.......

but, if that's your angle, the red areas are some of the most remote places in the nation - look at the purple dots where the major cities are - far from poverished.

but still, you're welcome......because poverished kids who shoot first and ask questions later have been saving this country for generations upon generations...

you're welcome......



Quote:
Originally Posted by MediaArtist View Post
Right right!

Houston Violent Crime Rate (incidents per 1000 residents):
9.97

Los Angeles Violent Crime Rate (incidents per 1000 residents):
4.83

http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/tx/houston/crime/
you forgot to mention:

Philly: 11.6 per 1000
Detroit: 21.2 per 1000
Atlanta: 14.2 per 1000
Miami: 11.7 per 1000
Oakland: 19.9 per 1000
Birmingham: 15.8 per 1000
Newark: 11.7 per 1000
Milwaukee: 12.9 per 1000
Cleveland: 13.8 per 1000
Flint: 27.4 per 1000
St Louis: 17.7 per 1000
Memphis: 17.5 per 1000
Kansas City: 12.6 per 1000
Orlando: 10.3 per 1000
Baltimore: 14.1 per 1000
Washington DC: 12.4 per 1000
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      03-18-2014, 09:52 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Litos View Post
and service members don't get into the military to become rich either, so your point was salty..........and grainy.......
My point was that military service isn't always a career for people who are simply patriotic and have a USA flag tattoo on their back. A lot of people join the military because it's a way out of poverty. They even advertise it in the commercials man (GI bill, paid college, etc).

Quote:
you forgot to mention:
Philly: 11.6 per 1000
Detroit: 21.2 per 1000
Atlanta: 14.2 per 1000
Miami: 11.7 per 1000
Oakland: 19.9 per 1000
Birmingham: 15.8 per 1000
Newark: 11.7 per 1000
Milwaukee: 12.9 per 1000
Cleveland: 13.8 per 1000
Flint: 27.4 per 1000
St Louis: 17.7 per 1000
Memphis: 17.5 per 1000
Kansas City: 12.6 per 1000
Orlando: 10.3 per 1000
Baltimore: 14.1 per 1000
Washington DC: 12.4 per 1000
So this proves what? Houston has comparable violent crime to some of the worst metros and cities for crime in the U.S? Okay, thanks? Neighborhood Scout determined that Houston is only safer than 5% of the cities in the entire database. I guess shoot first, ask questions later doesn't really make Houston a safer place.

That type of ROE might be appropriate for a military battlefield, but it's ignorant and stupid when used as a form of self defense in the home. Just ask Oscar Pistorius.
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      03-18-2014, 10:10 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MediaArtist View Post
A lot of people join the military because it's a way out of poverty. They even advertise it in the commercials man (GI bill, paid college, etc).
there you go again - you're using financial status and justifying why people join the military.

so 40% of this country's 911 Force is made up poor kids who like shooting guns....

i'll take it....

by the way, you're welcome......


Quote:
Originally Posted by MediaArtist View Post
So this proves what? Houston has comparable violent crime to some of the worst metros and cities for crime in the U.S?
Houston has LESS violent crime rates than some of the major cities in the entire country....
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      03-18-2014, 10:27 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Litos View Post
there you go again - you're using financial status and justifying why people join the military.

so 40% of this country's 911 Force is made up poor kids who like shooting guns....
Do you deny that's the case? It's certainly not middle-class or upper-middle-class kids who are trudging around in the mountains of Afghanistan. Again, not trashing the military, but let's not distort reality and make things up about some perceived patriotism in the South.

Quote:
Houston has LESS violent crime rates than some of the major cities in the entire country....
Yes, and it also has MORE violent crime than some of the major cities in the country. The point being, the behavior of using deadly force first doesn't necessarily make you safer. Two of the cities on your own list have a "Stand your ground law", where people can even exercise deadly force in public spaces, yet there they are on your list.

Gun use is safer when people are educated about their weapon, and respect gun ownership, along with the legal responsibility that comes along with it. It's as simple as that.
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      03-18-2014, 12:02 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MediaArtist View Post
Do you deny that's the case? It's certainly not middle-class or upper-middle-class kids who are trudging around in the mountains of Afghanistan. Again, not trashing the military, but let's not distort reality and make things up about some perceived patriotism in the South.
here is a guy that has never been in the military speaking on the subject.

you couldn't be more wrong......




Quote:
"...Those who have been so quick to suggest that today's wartime recruits represent lesser quality, lower standards, or lower class should be expected make an airtight case. Instead, they have cited selective evidence, which is balanced by a much clearer set of evidence showing improving troop quality.

Indeed, in many criteria, each year shows advancement, not decline, in measurable qualities of new enlistees. For example, it is commonly claimed that the military relies on recruits from poorer neighborhoods because the wealthy will not risk death in war. This claim has been advanced without any rigorous evidence. Our review of Pentagon enlistee data shows that the only group that is lowering its participation in the military is the poor. The percentage of recruits from the poorest American neighborhoods (with one-fifth of the U.S. population) declined from 18 percent in 1999 to 14.6 percent in 2003, 14.1 percent in 2004, and 13.7 percent in 2005.

This report updates the previous Heritage Foundation report, with data on all U.S. recruits during 2004 and 2005. We introduce the term "wartime recruits" to identify volunteer enlistees in all branches during 2003, 2004, and 2005. Like the previous report,[3] the analysis considers the following characteristics:

◾Household income,
◾Level of education,
◾Race/ethnicity, and
◾Regional/rural origin.

In summary, the additional years of recruit data (2004-2005) support the previous finding that U.S. military recruits are more similar than dissimilar to the American youth population. The slight differences are that wartime U.S. military enlistees are better educated, wealthier, and more rural on average than their civilian peers.

Recruits have a higher percentage of high school graduates and representation from Southern and rural areas. No evidence indicates exploitation of racial minorities (either by race or by race-weighted ZIP code areas). Finally, the distribution of household income of recruits is noticeably higher than that of the entire youth population.

When comparing these wartime recruits (2003- 2005) to the resident population ages 18-24 (as recorded in Census 2000), areas with median household income levels between $35,000 and $79,999 were overrepresented, along with income categories between $85,000 and $94,999. (See Chart 2.) Though the mainstream media continue to portray the war in Iraq as unpopular, this evidence suggests that the United States is not sending the poor to die for the interests of the rich.

With the addition of data for the 2004 and 2005 recruits, the quintile trends noted in the previous report are even more striking. (See Table 1.) From 2003 to 2005, the representation of the highest-income quintile rose 0.68 percentage point, from 22.17 percent to 22.85 percent. As conflict in Iraq continues, youth from wealthy areas continue to volunteer for duty despite increased risk. Additionally, over the course of these three recruit years, representation from the poorest quintile has decreased dramatically. The representation among recruits of the lowest-income quintile fell nearly a full percentage point, from 14.61 percent in 2003 to 13.66 percent in 2005...."


*****yawn*****




Quote:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2784508/posts

"...It should no more be necessary to write this article than to prove that there were Jews killed in the World Trade Center on 9/11. And yet the mythology refuses to die. Just last week, two well-educated and well-known writer acquaintances of mine remarked in passing on the "fact" that those who serve in the U.S. military typically have no other career options. America's soldiers, they said, were poor and black.

They don't mean this to denigrate their service—no, they mean it as a critique of American society, which turns its unemployed into cannon fodder. Especially today with high unemployment, the charge goes, hapless youths we fail to educate are embarking on a one-way trip to Afghanistan.

These allegations—most frequently leveled at the Army, the military's biggest service and the one with the highest casualty rate—are false.

In 2008, using data provided by the Defense Department, the Heritage Foundation found that only 11% of enlisted military recruits in 2007 came from the poorest one-fifth, or quintile, of American neighborhoods (as of the 2000 Census), while 25% came from the wealthiest quintile. Heritage reported that "these trends are even more pronounced in the Army Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC) program, in which 40% of enrollees come from the wealthiest neighborhoods, a number that has increased substantially over the past four years..."

you're welcome.......
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      03-18-2014, 02:45 PM   #55
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Cheetos, that's such a misleading report.

Quote:
the data do not include actual family income for each recruit, but rather use the median household income of the recruit’s home census tract.
Really? Why didn't the Heritage foundation use the recruit's actual family income? How do they know these are not the poor kids of the neighborhood joining? Or do they know and purposefully chose to mask that fact by using the census tract income (rather than actual income)?

Another conservative fluff piece from a conservative think tank that post "facts" based off of misleading data.
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      03-18-2014, 03:30 PM   #56
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      03-18-2014, 05:58 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MediaArtist
Cheetos, that's such a misleading report.

Quote:
the data do not include actual family income for each recruit, but rather use the median household income of the recruit’s home census tract.
Really? Why didn't the Heritage foundation use the recruit's actual family income? How do they know these are not the poor kids of the neighborhood joining? Or do they know and purposefully chose to mask that fact by using the census tract income (rather than actual income)?

Another conservative fluff piece from a conservative think tank that post "facts" based off of misleading data.
Most people live where they can afford it - wealthier people don't typically live in poorer neighborhoods, and poor people can't afford wealthier neighborhoods. I'll bet that's true even in, say, Laguna Beach!

Litos - many thanks to you and the other members of this board who faithfully serve(d) our country, without expecting the gratitude of those for whom you sacrificed.
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      03-18-2014, 06:14 PM   #58
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You would have a point if we were talking about individual neighborhoods, but we're not. We are talking about census tracts which are much larger population samples. For instance the income inequality for SF between the bottom 20 and the top 5 is almost 15x (15x higher than the bottom 20%). That's an immense gap that is not accounted for in the heritage study. Using a recruits actual family income is the only accurate measure here.

Anyway the Heritage foundation is a well known conservative spin house. As soon as I read that they did the study, I knew it would be fluff. It's bad PR for the armed forces if people figure out poor people are going out to die for rich people.

Here's a real source that uses pentagon stats.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...110302528.html

- half of recruits come from poor households
- 2/3 come from counties where the median income is below the national median income.

It's a well known fact that poor and lower income individuals make up the bulk of the armed forces (40% of all recruits are from the poor South). The opposite viewpoint isn't even logical.

Last edited by MediaArtist; 03-18-2014 at 06:28 PM..
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      03-18-2014, 07:07 PM   #59
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The Washington Post is one of the most liberal-leaning newspapers in the country.
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      03-19-2014, 06:37 AM   #60
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For a second I thought this thread was about a man shooting some kid that was boinking his daughter...
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      03-19-2014, 08:46 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
The Washington Post is one of the most liberal-leaning newspapers in the country.
LMFAO @ The Washington Post

yeah, like they know......
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      03-19-2014, 10:28 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
The Washington Post is one of the most liberal-leaning newspapers in the country.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Litos View Post
LMFAO @ The Washington Post

yeah, like they know......
The Post was only using data from the Pentagon. Certainly the Pentagon knows more than some right wing spin house like the Heritage foundation?

Quote:
As sustained combat in Iraq makes it harder than ever to fill the ranks of the all-volunteer force, newly released Pentagon demographic data show that the military is leaning heavily for recruits on economically depressed, rural areas where youths' need for jobs may outweigh the risks of going to war.
aka a lot of the new recruits were coming from poor areas in the South.

Do we have anymore strawmen to create, or are we going to start discrediting the Pentagon now?
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      03-19-2014, 10:43 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MediaArtist View Post
Do we have anymore strawmen to create, or are we going to start discrediting the Pentagon now?
I'm not discrediting the Pentagon - Heritage Group used THEIR DATA.

you must have been allergic to this sentence......

Our review of Pentagon enlistee data shows that the only group that is lowering its participation in the military is the poor. The percentage of recruits from the poorest American neighborhoods (with one-fifth of the U.S. population) declined from 18 percent in 1999 to 14.6 percent in 2003, 14.1 percent in 2004, and 13.7 percent in 2005.
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      03-19-2014, 10:46 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Litos View Post
I'm not discrediting the Pentagon - Heritage Group used THEIR DATA.

you must have been allergic to this sentence......

Our review of Pentagon enlistee data shows that the only group that is lowering its participation in the military is the poor. The percentage of recruits from the poorest American neighborhoods (with one-fifth of the U.S. population) declined from 18 percent in 1999 to 14.6 percent in 2003, 14.1 percent in 2004, and 13.7 percent in 2005.
Okay, the poorest dirt poor segment decreased, yet...

- Half of recruits still come from "poor" households
- 2/3 come from counties where the median income is below the national median income.

Are you really going to spin that to mean something else than the bulk of armed forces recruits are poor kids from poor areas? The Pentagon data is pretty cut and dry.
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      03-19-2014, 10:53 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grimlock View Post
^That would be one brave/whorish 16yr girl picking up random boys n bringing them home.

My take:
Boy wants pussy, girl is a bitch, dad thinks his little girl can do no wrong. Dad shoots horny boy.
Boy shouldn't have been so horny, girl shouldn't be a lying bitch, dad shouldn't be so blind to his/her faults.
Teenagers shouldn't do "teenagy" things. The girl needs her ass whooped, seriously. And I think the dad should have known whether or not his girl was "terrified of her life by someone stranger breaking in her house" vs. "a cute guy that I let in through my window and got caught with".
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      03-19-2014, 11:05 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billup View Post
For a second I thought this thread was about a man shooting some kid that was boinking his daughter...
It was, but Cheetos decided he would make the claim that a willingness to shoot first (instead of evaluating when to use deadly force as the law stipulates in Texas) was a reason why Texas was more safe.

Then I provided statistics that showed that Houston, where he actually lives, in terms of violent crime, was only safer than 5% of the cities in the U.S, meaning 95% of cities in the U.S are actually safer than Houston. Houston actually has more than double the violent crime per capita than Los Angeles, the closest large city to where I live.

Then he went on some tirade about how patriotic southerners who are willing to bust a cap without hesitation are the ones serving and doing their duty for this country and how we should appreciate how great they are.

Of course, the Pentagon data shows that the majority of recruits are poor southerners who are trudging around Afghanistan. and more likely joined the military because of economic incentives rather than pure patriotism.

Now Cheetos is trying to make some fantasy point about how it's not really poor people making up the bulk of recruits (contrary to the Pentagon data) and how it's middle class and upper middle class people who are putting on the ruck sack and carrying the assault rifles around in the Afghan Mountains.

Cliff notes for those interested.
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