[M3WC]

Originally Posted by tdott

I remember that, I believe the issue was that he got out of the car and had help to restart the car. Therefore it was the right albeit late call within the rules.

He never left the car. Trackside workers pulled vehicles apart, he eventually got restarted and rejoined the race.

Originally Posted by tdott

The Hamilton no penalty is not even close to the same.

Senna was only disqualified for cutting chicane, not joining circuit were he went off.

Originally Posted by tdott

Also FIA didn't confirm the resulting outcome was due to human error made by the race director.

Worse they sited five previous incidents which occurred earlier in season and previous year. Those incidents had absolutely nothing to do with Suzaka 89. French FISA president was protecting their French driver.

McLaren took the disqualification to the courts, French courts of all places. This would have a mega controversy if played out today with social media and current F1 tabloid journalism. It was massive back then, really changed F1 and Senna's career.

[E86Z4MC]

Originally Posted by NYG

The hilarious part of this cope is that if there was enough time to lap all of the cars, Hamilton still would have lost.

We've had these conversations like 500x already this year.

If you disregard all the freebies from 2021, including Merc crashing out Max at Hungary, Lewis nearly killing Max in Silverstone, Max getting half points at Spa, Lewis getting away with a bunch of shady driving, etc etc, here are the facts:

Attachment 3022780

Max was the champion of 2021 in an inferior car no matter how hard you cry into your pillow every night and wondering "what if." They shouldn't have even been close to even on points entering Abu Dhabi. You can't just fabricate these fantasy scenarios for one race and disregard all the others without looking silly. Skill defeated car.

The fantasy scenario is to count Spa and Abu Dabi as valid/meaningful race wins is a sham. Along with conveniently leaving out the fact that Max crashed into Lewis during a race he was well positioned to finish ahead (Monza).And all this talk of Max being a savage when he literally threw up an egg on the championship determining race.

The FIA is famously stubborn for never conceding that any mistake is made on their part, yet expressly called the end of Abu Dabi the result of human error. And now this outcome also the result of a car that was in breach of the regs.

Do folks think that these details aren't going to end up on Wikipedia?

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by tdott

I don't remember human errors handing them the WDC.
There was also no confirmed cheating during those years.

Blame those years on lack of competition. RB (and all others) had many years to catch up.

2018 - 2019 was not boring either, when Ferrari had the fastest car but couldn't deliver.

Try again.

Actually it doesn't matter anymore ..

What really matters , is what happened in 2021/2022 .

As I said : This is only the beginning !

Too bad , HAM cannot win a race this year and now has Mercedes many years to catch up ....

That's why I can feel your pain , and that really hurts !

[MontyB1]

Originally Posted by M3WC

Maybe we should have a thread about the biggest F1 controversies. Don't even have 2021 finale in top 5, probably not top 10.

Number 1...most likely Spygate 2007. McLaren forking over massive $100 million fine and being excluded from championship.

Lewis joined McLaren in 2007.

Funny how times goes on doesn’t it, that was a big witch hunt by Max Mosely who hated Ron. Also one of the reasons many including me can’t stand Alonso as he didn’t like getting beaten by Lewis and threatened to rat on the to the FIA to try and get preference. Ron didn’t even know this had gone on and when he did he called it out himself as he didn’t want Alonso having it over him.

But Renault I think it was did the same and it effectively got ignored, the contrast was with both punishment was as stark as it gets.

[Crimson92]

Originally Posted by NYG

You need everything to be a champion.

Senna needed everything, Schumacher needed everything, Lewis needed everything and Max needed everything.

The biggest difference between all of them is that the hybrid era Mercedes was literally F1 vs F2 compared to the rest of the grid. However dominant you think the RB18 is right now, it's not even close to how dominant the Merc was. Half of Red Bulls success this season is Ferrari being a dumpster fire.

So much this

[Blindside_137]

Oh look, a max vs Lewis thread this has become

[minn19]

Originally Posted by HeelToeShift

IMO - I look at anything Ham has done as an asterisk the size of Jupiter especially knowing what happened with Timo G and spygate as well as the cheating MB did with the engine and secret tire tests.
I think it's clear to see Max is a more raw talent and now that he has had some time to hone his ability he is a league above anyone in F1.

Oh yeah, well Max has an asterisk the size of a M class star.

Wait, what the hell are we doing, has it really come to this?

Yes, he is very talented but time will tell about the rest of his fanboys claims.

HAM is also very talented but they are at opposite ends of their careers so it is nearly impossible to compare them directly.

Both are excellent drivers ahead of the vast majority of current and past F1 drivers.

[Chihuahua]

Bring back Varsha/Matchett/Hobbs. I can't STAND the Sky broadcasts.

[Frostynorth]

Originally Posted by Onesie

Maybe you’re new to the sport?
F1 has always been dramatic.
Maybe I don’t fully understand what you’re referring to. “Falling far” from what?

F1 is most popular nowadays. From a general audience perspective, F1 got the “help it needed” when the Americans bought it and made it interesting to larger masses. Races have arguably been more fun to watch.
It used to be so technical that only those with an “in” would understand the nuances.

But the drama has always been there. There’s always a driver who’s liked, the underdog, the laughing stock (usually from Japan, way back when it was Yukio Katayama, now it’s Yuki Tsunoda), the superstar, the runner ups, etc. fights in the paddock, grilling battles on track. None of those are new.

It must be the increased social media coverage and such, but it's constant complaining from the teams and drivers. Feels over-dramatized now, every.little.thing. is an issue.

Would argue that the races have gotten worse, the past many many years it's been mostly a parade with the only real action being in the mid pack. DRS / Battery boost hasn't really done much to stop the reoccurring parade as they regularly negate each other.

Why are there no sprinklers yet? How often are wet races the best, from the panic for wets, is it intermediates? Full wets? When to switch back to slicks? The risks teams take making these decisions, so many quick reactions tossing the positions up in the air. That's fun.
But watching P1-6 with little overtakes going around in a circle, 1-4 often being 30+ seconds ahead. Needs more. Fell asleep many races over the past 10+ years due to this.


The new technical breakdowns, coverage, strategy explanations, better camera angles, and such are great. The sport was very unapproachable before, and needed a younger audience. Completely agree.

Maybe I'm just bored of the sport...

Originally Posted by M3WC

Honestly I blame Netflix and Drive To Survive. It has brought in so many uneducated fans. Most of them took sides immediately, either Max or Lewis. Now they just argue like school girls. F1 has been mired in controversy for decades, there was always some shenanigans or scandals going on(much worse than 2021 finale). Difference being everything is now blown up by Netflix and social media. In the past it eventually blew over and F1 moved on.

Good point on the social media, didn't really think of that. It all seems forced to grab more eyeballs.

[G30M]

It's easy. If the rules were followed in the last few laps Lewis wins.

But FIA never follows rules they make it up as they go, not just in the last 5 laps but the entire season and beyond - eg cost cap penalties and other what nots.

Hence Max is champion by merit.

Re Robbed, people are entitled to their opinion. AFAIK woke & cancel culture hadn't hit F1.

But Maybe it has now.

I'd love to see each F1 team must have a woman driver and each W series team have a man driver. Each starting position grid row must have a man and a woman. If the man passes the woman on the straights, 5 second time penalty. Half the mechanics must be women. It's too boring nowadays.

[NickyC]

Not again.....

C'mon people.

[Marcoose]

Originally Posted by NickyC

Not again.....

C'mon people.

It’ll never go away. And it shouldn’t. Massi robbed Hamilton, the British people, and black folk of a deserved and first-ever 8th championship.

Imagine if Hamilton had won last year. And this year some F1 or FIA official free-styled the rules and took Verstappen’s and the Belgium and Dutch folk their first and massively deserved championship? I’m neither Dutch, Belgium or a Verstappen fan, but would feel outraged. And the Belgium and Dutch press and folk and Verstappen fans would be entitled to express their feelings.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by M3WC

FIA president at the time was French and so was Prost.

I think Balestre a few years later also even admitted that he took that decision because of his nationality.

I think the relationship Webber-Vettel was also amongst the most hateful.


Regarding RB/Verstappen not speaking to Kravitz anymore: The british media and especially Sky sports is always bashing RB/Max.
If that is their game, they can expect that at some point RB won't talk to them anymore. Kravitz was just the straw that broke the camel's back.
I'm pretty sure it's in Kravitz/Sky's own power to undo this matter.

[3798j]

One of the most endearing Verstappen interviews was done by Sky reporter Rachel Brookes. It gave me (and no doubt others) a look into Max as a person that made me see just how genuine an individual he actually is. It was something not revealed by any article I had read or interview I had seen by any other reporter before or since. One can tell he's comfortable answering her questions in those pit lane walk talks. So not all Sky employees have a problem.
One good thing to come from the RBR Mexican Sky boycott was not having to see shallow Christian Horner talk his meaningless talk with the Sky crew....one could only hope that would continue.

[OG Shark]

Max, Ham, Sky, Ted, blah blah blah all meaningless. What is important is that on the broadcasts all we need is more

GUENTHER!!!!

[SoftShoe]

RB won’t speak to a news outlet because they recognize how fragile is their version of reality.

It does come across as childish.
And I say this as someone who doesn’t speak to certain people because of their version of reality (in politics).

RB is welcome to do as they wish.

If someone else’s perception of reality is too unpleasant for them, they don’t need to entertain those people in conversation.

But they should recognize that from their decision, they will certainly not change anyone’s perception of reality.


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d...-one-d59jpvs3n

[minn19]

Originally Posted by Onesie

I don’t believe the underlined to be true for RB.
I believe they’re bound by a contract. Which makes the situation even worse, according to your own text (which I agree).

They could always just pay the fines like Lewis did for not attending the awards thing. They seem to be ok with breaking the rules and just writing the check.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by minn19

They could always just pay the fines like Lewis did for not attending the awards thing. They seem to be ok with breaking the rules and just writing the check.

Exactly this happens in sports all the time. Nothing new.

[minn19]

Originally Posted by Onesie

How much is the fine? Couldn’t find it.

Good question, probably made up on the fly like every other FIA penalty it seems.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Marcoose

It’ll never go away. And it shouldn’t. Massi robbed Hamilton, the British people, and black folk of a deserved and first-ever 8th championship.

Imagine if Hamilton had won last year. And this year some F1 or FIA official free-styled the rules and took Verstappen’s and the Belgium and Dutch folk their first and massively deserved championship? I’m neither Dutch, Belgium or a Verstappen fan, but would feel outraged. And the Belgium and Dutch press and folk and Verstappen fans would be entitled to express their feelings.

Refrain from politicizing the matter by suggesting a vile and baseless conspiracy theory that nationality and race has played a role in the FIA race director's decision-making at the Abu Dhabi 2021 race. You are making this up - there is absolutely no proof at all of your toxic narrative.

You're entitled to your opinion, but not to your own facts: FIA took the race decision based on the situation on track after the Latifi crash, regardless of nationality and race of all drivers, teams and FIA officials involved. Whether the race-decision was legitimate in the light of the existing FIA rules, is a different discussion. But no indications whatsoever exist that nationality and race was part of the equation.

And about the notorious final shootout lap at Abu Dhabi 2021. Hamilton and Verstappen fought it out with their cars as ultimate finale of the 2021 season. Hamilton had the advantage of keeping P1 track position as a result of the Mercedes team decision not to pit him for new tires under the safety car. All it took to clinch the victory and world title was to stay ahead of Verstappen upon reaching the chequered flag 3.2 miles further down the road. He perfectly knew that Verstappen had pitted for new tires and that Verstappen would definitely try to overtake him. Team Mercedes had made a trade-off: preference for keeping track position with current tires rather than losing track position with new tires. They gambled on the first option, as the Mercedes car had proven to be the stronger package in the final races of the 2021 season and as the highly experienced Hamilton would have the benefit of leading the final laps.

Hamilton had effectively the benefit of starting the final shootout lap as race leader. Only 1 lap separated him from the chequered flag and, indeed, he had the benefit of controlling the restart and of the race lead. But despite his excellent driving skills, vast experience, P1 track position and the knowledge of the clear and present danger of Verstappen heavily breathing in his neck, he failed to pay enough attention upon approaching Turn 5 in that all-or-nothing lap (likely he anticipated that Verstappen would attack at a later turn). Verstappen outfoxed Hamilton on the inside of Turn 5 with a cunning surprise overtake maneuver. After that overtake maneuver, the fate was sealed. The strategic gamble by team Mercedes to keep P1 track position had been to no avail, as Hamilton had squandered the P1 track position advantage in Turn 5 by failure to protect/defend the inside.

To win a race you must remain aware till the chequered flag. When under attack, cover your bases. Verstappen was aware - Hamilton apparently wasn't. Also taking into consideration earlier achievements throughout the 2021 season, Verstappen showcased during the final shootout lap against his main rival Hamilton that he did deserve the 2021 WDC title.

[GuidoK]

Originally Posted by 3798j

... was not having to see shallow Christian Horner talk his meaningless talk ....

You don't have to see anything.
Nobody's forcing you to watch

[GuidoK]

Fact: Hamilton could have come in for fresh tyres just as well as Verstappen did....
The difference is that Hamilton didn't and Verstappen did...