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      01-15-2013, 09:54 PM   #903
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Randy Pobst tests the Toyobaru against one of the best FWD cars out there, the Ford Focus ST (a personal fave of mine - I really like the handling of the low-to mid-powered latest Focus chassis because they all are VERY playful)(minute 8:00):

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      01-17-2013, 02:44 PM   #904
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Some figures from another Focus ST / Toyobaru comparo:





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      01-20-2013, 11:46 AM   #905
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Nice looking Toyobaru...



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      01-20-2013, 08:26 PM   #906
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Yet another Toyobaru comparo... I don't care about what they say

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      01-22-2013, 07:55 AM   #907
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Toyota GT86: Official Nordschleife Laptime



1. Dyno-measurements: Everything is as claimed by factory: 200,6 hp @ ca. 6900 rpm, ca. 210 Nm @ ca. 6450 rpm.
2. Tyres: Stickier Bridgestones instead of the Michelin Primacys.
3. Nrburgring-Nordschleife: 8.44,9 min - the engine is great at high revs, the suspension works very well on the dumpy surface, as well as the braking-system.
4. Hockenheimring short course: 1.19,4 min - the GT86 is 2,1 seconds quicker around the short HHR as it was on the Michelins. Neutral behaviour.
5. Aerodynamic: Cw 0,33 - Relatively low Cw, but high uplift-forces: 41 kg at the front, 32 kg at the rear.
6. Maximal lateral G-force: 1,20 g.
7. Acceleration/flexibility: 0-100 km/h in 7,1 s (0,5 s under factory's claim). 80-120 km/h in fifth gear: 9,2 s.
8. Braking: 100-0 km/h with warm brakes (10th braking in a row): 36,4 m. Peak longitudinal G-force: -1,09 g.
9. 18 m slalom, ISO evasive test: 68,1 km/h, 140 km/h.


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      01-22-2013, 09:48 AM   #908
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Oh good, so a little faster than a Range Rover Sport. Dear lord, it's not like the STI crew is doing anything else, please add more power.
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      01-22-2013, 11:16 AM   #909
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8.45 min is a little better than the 8:50 time that AutoZeitung predicted the GT86 would be capable of in a dry lap to the Nurburgring circuit with the Bridgestones Potenza S001 and a WAY better than 9:09 min they did on the stock Michelins Primacy HP and a partially damp track:








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      01-22-2013, 11:45 AM   #910
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Oh good, so a little faster than a Range Rover Sport. Dear lord, it's not like the STI crew is doing anything else, please add more power.
Or you could otherwise say... just a little slower than an equally light weight and 40 hp more powerful, 9000 rpm capable Honda S2000 also driven by Horst von Saurma: 8:39 min.

So you see, it's not so much a question of more power but mid-range punch instead... please add more torque!

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      01-22-2013, 12:11 PM   #911
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So you see, it's not so much a question of more power but mid-range punch instead... please add more torque!
Or just lose even more weight and put even stickier tires (245/40/17).
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      01-22-2013, 12:27 PM   #912
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Or just lose even more weight and put even stickier tires (245/40/17).
Loosing even more weight is not a reasonable thing to ask from a cost/practicality perspective unless you don't want a daily commute - I certainly do!

With more low to mid-range torque you will inevitably need slightly more rubber. Mind you, the S2000 also has the wider rear tires advantage f:215/45R17 r: 245/40R17 (as you suggest).
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      01-23-2013, 12:53 AM   #913
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Or you could otherwise say... just a little slower than an equally light weight and 40 hp more powerful, 9000 rpm capable Honda S2000 also driven by Horst von Saurma: 8:39 min.

So you see, it's not so much a question of more power but mid-range punch instead... please add more torque!
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With more low to mid-range torque you will inevitably need slightly more rubber. Mind you, the S2000 also has the wider rear tires advantage f:215/45R17 r: 245/40R17 (as you suggest).

Ok Red Bread, I must be fair with you.

In fact, the Horst von Saurma's Nurburgring lap time on the Honda S2000 dates from 01/2000 which means that not only the wheels and tires were smaller - front 205/55 and rear 225/50 on 16-inch alloy wheels - but also that the OEM tires were the Bridgestones Potenza S-02 based on which the S2000 was developed. (Only after 2003 the S2000 came equipped with the RE050's tires f: 215/45R17 r: 245/40R17)

The tested original Honda S2000 (AP1 S2000s) still had the wider rear tires advantage when compared to the Toyobaru though (215/45 R17 on all four corners for the Toyobaru) and whether the Potenza's S-02 are a better tire in the dry than the more recent Potenza's RE050A used on the GT86 for setting the Nurburgring lap time I really can't tell but it seems the consensus among the S2000 owners is that the S02s are better (they provide increased grip in the dry at the expense of faster wear).


Quote:
02/22/2001 - Torrance, Calif. -

INTRODUCTION
The latest version of VTEC, Honda's advanced variable valve-timing system, operates the S2000 engine's16 valves (4 per cylinder). This new system is more compact and tailored to the high-output, high-rpm operating characteristics of the S2000 engine.

A new 6-speed, close-ratio manual transmission has also been designed for the S2000. The transmission is a compact design and features a direct shift linkage with excellent feel and short throws. A Torsen limited-slip differential smoothly delivers power to the rear wheels, regardless of traction conditions.

The S2000 engine and transmission are capable of accelerating the S2000 from 0 -- 60 mph in less than six seconds.

Honda's racing expertise is also evident in the S2000's responsive handling. The chassis has an ideal 50/50 weight distribution, and the body and frame are a new-design hybrid monocoque/frame structure that forms a rigid, flex-free platform for the S2000's newly developed in-wheel double wishbone suspension system, and plays an important role in helping the S2000 achieve its high "world-class" safety protection. The power steering system is a newly developed, highly responsive, electrically assisted type.

The front 205/55 and rear 225/50 R-rated tires are mounted on 16-inch alloy wheels, and 11-inch brake discs (vented in front) provide excellent stopping power and brake feel. An anti-lock braking system is standard.

ORIGINAL JAPANESE BROCHURE:



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      01-23-2013, 09:50 AM   #914
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Ha, good catch. To be fair, the 86 would certainly benefit from stickier tires, not the Prius garbage. But I still want more power, it's clearly capable of handling it. This reminds me of the original Boxster and it's anemic engine with a great chassis.
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      01-23-2013, 02:57 PM   #915
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dear lord, the car just came out. Give them some time to breath so marketing could make some $$$. Next year they will add the mambo/jambo tarbo(s).
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      01-23-2013, 03:12 PM   #916
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raja Ventureshield View Post
dear lord, the car just came out. Give them some time to breath so marketing could make some $$$. Next year they will add the mambo/jambo tarbo(s).
I wish it was as soon as next year, but I suspect it will take at least a few more years for something more powerful to come along. Subaru still has a WRX/STI to launch and Toyota doesn't seem to be very committed to this project yet.
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      01-23-2013, 06:03 PM   #917
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Quote:
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I wish it was as soon as next year, but I suspect it will take at least a few more years for something more powerful to come along. Subaru still has a WRX/STI to launch and Toyota doesn't seem to be very committed to this project yet.
This year already, TRD might sell a supercharger kit. This means dealer installed and waranty kept. Should add +50 PS.
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      01-23-2013, 06:10 PM   #918
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Quote:
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Ha, good catch. To be fair, the 86 would certainly benefit from stickier tires, not the Prius garbage. But I still want more power, it's clearly capable of handling it. This reminds me of the original Boxster and it's anemic engine with a great chassis.
Do you consider the S2000 underpowered?

Do you consider that a time difference of only 6 seconds in the Nurburgring circuit is big enough for one to even care about more power in the Toyobaru?

Do you understand the Prius tires whole idea?


If you say 'Prius garbage' I think you are missing the whole concept BIG time...


BTW, the Boxster tires always were and still are too wide for anyone to be able to upset the chassis in a nice and progressive way without big power and electronic 'vectoring bullshit' gizmos... do you understand the difference?
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      01-23-2013, 06:38 PM   #919
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Nope, the S2000 was great, I've driven SP1's and 2's both on the street and track.

The simple fact that the BRZ is within six seconds of the S2k is very impressive given the tires are a serious handicap compared to even the S02's on the Honda, given that they're nearly identical in weight and torque, with the S2k having a higher rev range and associated hp advantage.

I get the garbage tires being fun in casual driving, and I get that it's easy to remedy this with better tires for those of us that seek track time and higher limits, clearly the chassis is capable of taking advantage of more grip.

I daily drove and tracked a Miata for years, and my last car was an M Coupe with the silly, understeering staggered setup, very similar to what Boxsters wore. Many track rats switch to square setups and I'd likely keep the BRZ that way.

I've seriously considered buying one, I certainly haven't ruled it out (current dealer pricing makes them less desirable), but I'd be very tempted to jack with the power of a stock one, so waiting (semi patiently) for an STI version doesn't hurt me one bit. I'm not voicing displeasure at the current state of the BRZ/86/FRS, only stating that the chassis is clearly capable of more and that offering two versions hurts no one, especially the bottom line.

I don't want a supercharger, at least a non intercooled one like TRD is likely to offer. I live somewhere that it gets hot and track time with an engine without adequate cooling isn't fun.

If I were looking for a 100% street driven, amusing car, the stock BRZ fits that bill very well, but for a car that would be tracked, I'd like the power to push the chassis a little closer to it's limits and not be flat footing the thing around all day long. We haven't talked about frequent discussions of the weak brakes, but that's another area that STI may help, although the Brembo's on the STI Imprezas haven't been too stellar.
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      01-23-2013, 09:08 PM   #920
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Nope, the S2000 was great, I've driven SP1's and 2's both on the street and track.

The simple fact that the BRZ is within six seconds of the S2k is very impressive given the tires are a serious handicap compared to even the S02's on the Honda, given that they're nearly identical in weight and torque, with the S2k having a higher rev range and associated hp advantage.
Red Bread,

You must compare the Potenza's RE050A mounted on the Toyobaru (not the Prius rubber) to the Potenza's S-02 of the original S2000. With that in mind one can not say, in all seriousness, that a Toyobaru so equipped is handicapped by the tires when compared to the S2000.

Since you've driven several S2000's maybe you can tell us what tire did you find to be the better choice for the dry track, the S-02 or the RE050?

Also, the main reason why the Toyobaru managed to achieve such a close Nurburgring lap time to the S2000, despite the lower rev range and hp disadvantage, has all to do with its utterly brilliant balance whereas the S2000 certainly isn't an easy car to drive on the limit.

Additionally, the S2000 is a VERY good example of what I mean when I'm asking NOT for more power but for increased torque from the Toyobaru's engine.

In effect, as you well know being familiar with the AP1 and AP2 versions of the S2000, the latter went from a 2.0L engine with 240 hp (179 kW; 243 PS) @ 8300 rpm to a 2.2L engine, slightly less power, 237 hp (177 kW; 240 PS) @ 7800 rpm, BUT with more torque and appearing at a lower rpm range than the Toyobaru's equivalent figure of the S2000 earlier version: from 153 lbft (207 Nm) @ 7500 rpm to 162 lbft (220 Nm) @ 6800 rpm (US) or better still 163 lbft (221 Nm) @ 6500-7500 rpm (JP). That's all that is needed - MORE TORQUE!!!



Quote:
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I get the garbage tires being fun in casual driving, and I get that it's easy to remedy this with better tires for those of us that seek track time and higher limits, clearly the chassis is capable of taking advantage of more grip.

I daily drove and tracked a Miata for years, and my last car was an M Coupe with the silly, understeering staggered setup, very similar to what Boxsters wore. Many track rats switch to square setups and I'd likely keep the BRZ that way.

I've seriously considered buying one, I certainly haven't ruled it out (current dealer pricing makes them less desirable), but I'd be very tempted to jack with the power of a stock one, so waiting (semi patiently) for an STI version doesn't hurt me one bit. I'm not voicing displeasure at the current state of the BRZ/86/FRS, only stating that the chassis is clearly capable of more and that offering two versions hurts no one, especially the bottom line.

I don't want a supercharger, at least a non intercooled one like TRD is likely to offer. I live somewhere that it gets hot and track time with an engine without adequate cooling isn't fun.

If I were looking for a 100% street driven, amusing car, the stock BRZ fits that bill very well, but for a car that would be tracked, I'd like the power to push the chassis a little closer to it's limits and not be flat footing the thing around all day long. We haven't talked about frequent discussions of the weak brakes, but that's another area that STI may help, although the Brembo's on the STI Imprezas haven't been too stellar.

I've got the right solution for your track toy (no more power needed)... a weight loss of 155 kg, from around 1275 kg to 1120 kg :











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      01-24-2013, 11:09 AM   #921
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Stripping out the insides makes it a better track toy, but more power could give you the same result and keep it as a useable car. It may be only a matter of time, but what could be a hold up is whether there's some agreement that Toyota and Suburu have to mutually agree to an upgrade. I doubt Toyota would be happy if Suburu began offering a more powerful version on their own so that's probably baked in to the original development agreement.
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      01-24-2013, 11:57 AM   #922
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Stripping out the insides makes it a better track toy, but more power could give you the same result and keep it as a useable car.
No way ptack! There's absolutely NO substitute to the lower weight. This is the basic rule that everyone should keep in mind.

More power implies bigger rubber, bigger wheels, bigger brake systems, structural reinforcements to the chassis, strut tower bars, bigger sway bars, more engine components, stiffer suspensions, poorer ride compliance, poorer emissions standards, more fuel consumption... in a word: MORE WEIGHT!!!

Once you get there... all you got is poorer dynamics and then to make up for what you've just lost you start to add electronic damper suspensions, active sway bars, not fully defeatable Electronic Stability Controls, variable cylinder management with cylinder deactivation, etc... and finally after all the money you've spent you say to yourself, ok my car is aimed to the luxury market, so you give it a price tag to match and probably you will end up calling it... hummm... Porsche or something like that!!!

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      01-24-2013, 12:08 PM   #923
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Low weight is fun, but driving my friend's Exige around US roads was not. That thing would get annihilated by a SMART car, much less every soccer mom in a Suburban or a GL63. The BRZ and S2k are right around the sweet spot of weight from a safety stand point. Much under 2,600 pounds or so seems to sacrifice too many things to civility and safety. My Miata lacking fender sound proofing sure was annoying on rainy days.
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      01-24-2013, 03:28 PM   #924
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Low weight is fun, but driving my friend's Exige around US roads was not. That thing would get annihilated by a SMART car, much less every soccer mom in a Suburban or a GL63. The BRZ and S2k are right around the sweet spot of weight from a safety stand point. Much under 2,600 pounds or so seems to sacrifice too many things to civility and safety. My Miata lacking fender sound proofing sure was annoying on rainy days.
Man,

You asked for a track toy... I 'gave you' one of the best - a 1120 kg Toyobaru with stock engine. Period.

For every other use you can come up with you've just pointed out why the Toyobaru, even in its current form, is such a GEM, it has NO parallel!
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