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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > General BMW News and Cars Discussion > BMW Z2 Roadster Under Consideration, on FWD Platform



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      01-14-2013, 02:42 PM   #111
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The complete car is HIDEOUS whether looking at the front, side, rear, drivetrain. DAMN Chris Bangle looks like a fricking designer of GOD's caliber, than who thought of this crap
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      01-14-2013, 10:25 PM   #112
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Is it really that much cheaper to make it a FWD?
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      01-15-2013, 07:09 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by tmurphy2 View Post
Is it really that much cheaper to make it a FWD?
Yes, because the "platform" that underpins the car is based on the upcoming Mini/1-Series. The platform (basic chassis design) is the most expensive part of the car to manufacture. Sharing the platform over several different models allows for the manufacturer to amortize the cost of manufacturing over a larger number of car units, thus reducing the unit-cost to manufacture a particular model based off the (shared) platform.
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      01-15-2013, 09:39 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by tmurphy2 View Post
Is it really that much cheaper to make it a FWD?
Yes, absolutely.

Steel isn't cheap, and components like drive shafts and drive axles use a lot of it. There are also a lot of packaging constraints that FWD solves, making the car less expensive. You can use less metal in the construction of the chassis when building a FWD car. Straight lines are shorter than curved lines when measured along the contour, so the "hump" required to accommodate the drive shaft actually has a measurable impact on the amount of steel used. You can also make a FWD more compact (dimensionally) because the rear axle and suspension doesn't need to accommodate a differential. Also, the engine is oriented transversely, which allows you to make the car shorter.

The trouble is that all these packaging advantages trade off in two areas:

1) Front/rear weight balance

2) Engine position in relation to the front axle

It's impossible to achieve near 50/50 weight balance in a FWD car, and even if you do, the polar moment of inertia is going to be higher than a front-mid engine RWD car like BMW currently makes. Can't change the laws of physics.
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      01-15-2013, 02:36 PM   #115
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The appeal of the FWD cars will rely on the full package and having seen the first wave of models shared with MINI , the visual aesthetic is typical BMW the design is modern and the concept extends individuality against the mainstream choices.

If you thought the current line up of MINI models was impressive then the next generation will floor you because the desirability is kicked up a notch as is model progression . Stand out has to be the Traveller , again it conforms to the dare to be different visual appeal of the BMW Active Tourer it is more visually than what you expect in a van with a glasshouse.

The key important aspect between BMW and MINI is that although everything is shared, every aspect of the cars are developed to be a signature of each brand.k
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      01-15-2013, 05:16 PM   #116
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You are on BMW payroll Scott ? Give us a break, FW BMW is a fail, period.
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      01-15-2013, 10:57 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by h46pilot View Post
And Audi was a brand that "started in the 90s"? I'm not even sure if you're trolling or if you're being serious here.
Yes, Audi was basically non-existent in 80s and before. Technically their history does go back to 1909, but majority of it was as a defunct brand and a part of Auto Union which became Audi.
Audi was not an official brand until the mid 80's and their naming convention, eg. A4, A6, etc started in the 90s.
I see Audi in the same level as Lexus. Sure, they are luxury brands and share the market with Mercedes-Benz and BMW but I don't see them as equal to Mercedes-Benz or BMW.
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      01-16-2013, 01:23 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonicbimmer19 View Post
Yes, Audi was basically non-existent in 80s and before. Technically their history does go back to 1909, but majority of it was as a defunct brand and a part of Auto Union which became Audi.
Audi was not an official brand until the mid 80's and their naming convention, eg. A4, A6, etc started in the 90s.
I see Audi in the same level as Lexus. Sure, they are luxury brands and share the market with Mercedes-Benz and BMW but I don't see them as equal to Mercedes-Benz or BMW.
Actually, the first modern Audi to be sold under the 'Audi' brand was the 1968 Audi 100. Around the same time, Auto Union was renamed Audi AG. But it was still the same company, and it has been making cars continuously since the early 1900s.

In comparison, the first modern BMW was the 1962 BMW 1500. Older cars like the Isetta and 700 had very little in common with modern BMWs. Most people don't even know that in the first 20 or so years after Word War II, BMW was primarily known as a manufacturer of economy cars.

Last edited by Ti335; 01-16-2013 at 01:37 AM.
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      01-16-2013, 07:03 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonicbimmer19 View Post
Yes, Audi was basically non-existent in 80s and before. Technically their history does go back to 1909, but majority of it was as a defunct brand and a part of Auto Union which became Audi.
Audi was not an official brand until the mid 80's and their naming convention, eg. A4, A6, etc started in the 90s.
I see Audi in the same level as Lexus. Sure, they are luxury brands and share the market with Mercedes-Benz and BMW but I don't see them as equal to Mercedes-Benz or BMW.
You don't have this exactly correct.
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      01-17-2013, 01:17 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ti335 View Post
Actually, the first modern Audi to be sold under the 'Audi' brand was the 1968 Audi 100. Around the same time, Auto Union was renamed Audi AG. But it was still the same company, and it has been making cars continuously since the early 1900s.

In comparison, the first modern BMW was the 1962 BMW 1500. Older cars like the Isetta and 700 had very little in common with modern BMWs. Most people don't even know that in the first 20 or so years after Word War II, BMW was primarily known as a manufacturer of economy cars.
Not exactly. Audi 80 and Audi 100 were models and not a brand in 60s; it was under Auto Union which is modern day Audi. And so TECHNICALLY Audi was established in 1909 but it's laughable in my opinion.
For comparison, BMW history goes back to 1917 but I'd say BMW got big in the 60s with New Class and New Six then the 3, 5, 7 series in the 70s.

But honestly, it doesn't matter. What I meant to say, my message was, that Audi was not popular/big until 90s.
I've been to junk yards and if you've ever been to a junk yard, they usually have cars from the 80s and 90s and you see a load of BMWs and Mercedes' but you don't really see an Audi. Last time I went to the junk yard, I actually paid attention and found TWO Audi's in the entire lot compared to many BMW's and MB's (hard to put a number but I'd say about 30-50 each)

In addition, when I go to Cars and Coffee in Irvine weekly, I consistently see quite a few BMW's from 60s and 70s (I'd say about 5 every week) and a LOT of current/recent BMW's, lately mostly the M5.
I see many Mercedes' from 50s (about 5-7 every week) and a quite few current ones.
On the other hand, I've yet to see a single "classic" Audi. I might've seen an Audi 80 once. And I rarely see a current Audi (A4, A5, A6, A8, etc). I do see R8's every other week.. some weeks there are none, some weeks there are like 5 lol.

Main point: Audi was not big until 90s. I don't care when they said the company was established.
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      01-17-2013, 01:19 AM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
You don't have this exactly correct.
thanks for the contribution
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      01-17-2013, 02:22 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonicbimmer19 View Post
Main point: Audi was not big until 90s. I don't care when they said the company was established.
Audi was never big in USA (still isn't, really). But go to Europe and especially Germany, and you'll see a different picture.

Here's a classic Audi for ya:



and another one:



and another one:



and another one:



and another one:



and let's not forget this one:


Last edited by Ti335; 01-17-2013 at 02:33 AM.
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      01-17-2013, 06:56 AM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonicbimmer19 View Post
Yes, Audi was basically non-existent in 80s and before. Technically their history does go back to 1909, but majority of it was as a defunct brand and a part of Auto Union which became Audi.
Audi was not an official brand until the mid 80's and their naming convention, eg. A4, A6, etc started in the 90s.
I see Audi in the same level as Lexus. Sure, they are luxury brands and share the market with Mercedes-Benz and BMW but I don't see them as equal to Mercedes-Benz or BMW.
Sorry, but I think you are hallucinating. Audi was a brand name since the late 60's. My girlfriend's father had an Audi 100 in the mid 70's and he absolutely hated it (it was a POS). It wasn't badged "Audi 100 Built by little-known Auto-Union of Germany". As I remember it all Audis sucked until the Quattro became popular in the late 80's (and as far a build quality it still sucked).

So now that Audi is part of the VW group is it a VW or an Audi? Just curious.
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      01-17-2013, 07:00 AM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ti335 View Post
Audi was never big in USA (still isn't, really). But go to Europe and especially Germany, and you'll see a different picture.

Here's a classic Audi for ya:



and another one:



and another one:



and another one:



and another one:



and let's not forget this one:

You left out the Brazilian-built Audi Fox. Apparently "basically non-existant" German auto companies have enough financial resources to build factories in foriegn countries. LOL.
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      01-17-2013, 09:02 AM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ti335 View Post
Audi was never big in USA (still isn't, really). But go to Europe and especially Germany, and you'll see a different
Yes, I guess that was my point. In a way I'm being ignorant? But I believe to be big, you have to be truly global. To my knowledge, Audi does not have the same appeal as BMW or Mercedes in Asia, Middle East, Sourh America either.
But from what I hear, Audi is the best seller in Western Europe.
This year, BMW sold 1.8 mil, Audi sold 1.6 mil, Mercedes sold 1.45 mil (I forget exactly)
That makes me super curious if Audi's are super common in Europe

All I was trying to say was that Audi is not a truly prestigious brand imo, not as desirable as BMW, the same way BMW isn't quite as prestigious as Mercedes. (We've come a long way in the past 20 years though)

I see Mercedes and BMW almost every street and every time I'm on the freeway but I don't see Audi's nearly much at all and I do pay attention for cars when I'm on the road

Cheers!
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      01-17-2013, 09:14 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Sorry, but I think you are hallucinating. Audi was a brand name since the late 60's. My girlfriend's father had an Audi 100 in the mid 70's and he absolutely hated it (it was a POS). It wasn't badged "Audi 100 Built by little-known Auto-Union of Germany". As I remember it all Audis sucked until the Quattro became popular in the late 80's (and as far a build quality it still sucked).

So now that Audi is part of the VW group is it a VW or an Audi? Just curious.
Ok I think I got my point across finally which is really the whole point. We both agree Audi's sucked until the late 80s/90s
I guess when I said "Audi didn't exist until the 90s," that was a big exaggeration you didn't appreciate and I apologize. But I was really saying that they were not big until then, the same way BMW wasn't big until the 60s/70s.

I don't even care, but are you aware that the four ring logo is a Auto Union logo and Audi had its own logo? As I was not even born then, I could be wrong.

When I was growing up and didn't know anything about cars, I liked Audi's because of their design and I just liked the logo. But I like Audi's less and less now.
I see Audi's as expensive Volkswagens. Majority of Audi's we see on the road are front-wheel drives (unless it says Quattro of course). Maybe luxury doesn't have to be RWD but as of now, it does.
My bestfriend owns a Volkswagen and when I went to check out Audi at their dealership a couple months ago, I was shocked. Everything looks and feels the same. The buttons, etc.
I'd get Audi over BMW or Mercedes only if I had a specific budget and I really didn't want to spend a few grand more

Cheers

Last edited by sonicbimmer19; 01-17-2013 at 09:23 AM.
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      01-17-2013, 09:23 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by sonicbimmer19 View Post
Ok I think I got my point across finally which is really the whole point. We both agree Audi's sucked until the late 80s/90s
I guess when I said "Audi didn't exist until the 90s," that was a big exaggeration you didn't appreciate and I apologize. But I was really saying that they were not big until then, the same way BMW wasn't big until the 60s/70s.

I don't even care, but are you aware that the four ring logo is a Auto Union logo and Audi had its own logo? As I was not even born then, I could be wrong.

When I was growing up and didn't know anything about cars, I liked Audi's because of their design and I just liked the logo. But I like Audi's less and less now.
I see Audi's as expensive Volkswagens. Majority of Audi's we see on the road are front-wheel drives (unless it says Quattro of course). Maybe luxury doesn't have to be RWD but as of now, it does.
My bestfriend owns a Volkswagen and when I went to check out Audi at their dealership a couple months ago, I was shocked. Everything looks and feels the same. The buttons, etc.
I'd get Audi over BMW or Mercedes only if I had a specific budget and I really didn't want to spend a few grand more

Cheers
Cool. Had you said "Audi wasn't relevant as a high-quality brand until the 90's", then you'd probably garnered more agreement with your statements.
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      01-17-2013, 09:55 PM   #128
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      01-17-2013, 11:29 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonicbimmer19 View Post
All I was trying to say was that Audi is not a truly prestigious brand imo, not as desirable as BMW, the same way BMW isn't quite as prestigious as Mercedes.
The prestige hierarchy that you are suggesting simply does not exist anymore. Mercedes has long stopped being #1. In fact, most of their models, except for the very high end ones, cost less than comparable Audi and BMW models. In a way, they have become the "value brand" of the European luxury segment.

In Germany, Audi is by far the best selling luxury car. More than that, it's the second best selling car brand period, second only to VW. To me, success in the German domestic market is much more indicative of the true quality of the product than success in the USA. Most Americans have absolutely terrible taste in automobiles and spend big money crappy cars like Lincoln, Lexus, Cadillac Escalade, etc. Audi also easily outsells Mercedes and BMW in the rest of Europe, Russia, China and many other Asian countries. Audi's sales are also growing at a greater rate as compared to BMW's or MB's.
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      01-19-2013, 12:19 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Ti335 View Post
The prestige hierarchy that you are suggesting simply does not exist anymore. Mercedes has long stopped being #1. In fact, most of their models, except for the very high end ones, cost less than comparable Audi and BMW models.
I respect your opinion and understand all your points but I have to disagree respectfully.
Mercedes has more "mass" production cars over $100k: S, CL, G, SL (and SLS). Compared to BMW only has M6 (not to mention not as rich in history as Mercedes cars such as SL)

I am aware that when you compare 535i to E350, 535i is more expensive, but when you think Mercedes, you think of big and expensive cars such as S, CL, SL, G.
When you think BMW, you think of 3 series and maybe 5 series.

If you ask an average person, sure, he or she might not know the gap between Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Lexus, Cadillac and say they are all on the same level, but I think the hierarchy definitely exists and it will not just go away overnight.
IMO, it goes Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Lexus, Infiniti, Acura. Not sure where Cadillac would be.. probably between Lexus and Infiniti.

If I may add, as last thought, I'm pretty sure even an average person knows Mercedes and BMW are at least slightly "better" than Audi. At least in the US.

Cheers!

edit: p.s. I'm not sure how sales figures show which brand is more prestigious. BMW sells the most globally but I don't think BMW is more prestigious than Mercedes because of that.
When you see what cars celebrities and sports stars drive, not counting super luxury cars such as Rolls Royce, Bentley, Lamborghini, Ferrari, majority of them drives a Mercedes or/and Range Rover. I think that's another "proof"
Just my personal opinion, of course

Last edited by sonicbimmer19; 01-19-2013 at 12:35 AM.
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      01-19-2013, 06:49 AM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ti335 View Post
The prestige hierarchy that you are suggesting simply does not exist anymore. Mercedes has long stopped being #1. In fact, most of their models, except for the very high end ones, cost less than comparable Audi and BMW models. In a way, they have become the "value brand" of the European luxury segment.

In Germany, Audi is by far the best selling luxury car. More than that, it's the second best selling car brand period, second only to VW. To me, success in the German domestic market is much more indicative of the true quality of the product than success in the USA. Most Americans have absolutely terrible taste in automobiles and spend big money crappy cars like Lincoln, Lexus, Cadillac Escalade, etc. Audi also easily outsells Mercedes and BMW in the rest of Europe, Russia, China and many other Asian countries. Audi's sales are also growing at a greater rate as compared to BMW's or MB's.
Really, these cars are crappy? So apparently if one doesn't buy German he has bad taste. Good Lord. If you like a tarted-up Volkswagon, then by all means go buy yourself an Audi. Gee, I've been to Toronto, I don't recall EVERY car being either an Audi, Mercedes, or a BMW. Oh no, even some American cars are built in Canada!
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      01-19-2013, 01:08 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmurphy2 View Post
Is it really that much cheaper to make it a FWD?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
Yes, absolutely.

Steel isn't cheap, and components like drive shafts and drive axles use a lot of it. There are also a lot of packaging constraints that FWD solves, making the car less expensive. You can use less metal in the construction of the chassis when building a FWD car. Straight lines are shorter than curved lines when measured along the contour, so the "hump" required to accommodate the drive shaft actually has a measurable impact on the amount of steel used. You can also make a FWD more compact (dimensionally) because the rear axle and suspension doesn't need to accommodate a differential. Also, the engine is oriented transversely, which allows you to make the car shorter.

SNIP
FWD is also cheaper in this context I suspect because it will leverage the parts bin of a volume selling sister car built on the same platform.

Agree that FWD is popular mainly because it gives you more flexibility when designing an interior and facilitating a more spacious and flexible layout. But in the context of a 2 seater sports car that latter benefit is completely irrelevant - a spacious, flexible interior is NOT one of a sports car designer's priorities!!

So this is going to be a boulevard cruiser for ladies with unusually high levels of space for shopping and handbags that won't handle like a proper sports car, whatever this guy says!

It's a little bit embarassing that Mazda can stick to the right formula but BMW can't ....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rear_wh...e#Advantages_2
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