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      11-26-2012, 12:33 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by W/// View Post
Suprised no one else is talking about this: WTF was Webber thinking? I understand he doesn't like being considered the #2 driver at RBR, but actually racing his teammate when everything was on the line for him was just ridiculous. Can't help but admit I've lost a lot of respect for that guy. Anyone else feel the same?

Not saying he has to be what Massa is to Alonso, but on the last race of the year? C'mon man
i sort of get what you're saying but all last week Webber kept saying it was every man for himself, so i didnt have a problem w/ him doing it. had more of a problem w/ the execution actually, it was a bit reckless. Going three wide and in the wet, pretty crazy
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      11-26-2012, 12:47 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by escobar929 View Post
i sort of get what you're saying but all last week Webber kept saying it was every man for himself, so i didnt have a problem w/ him doing it. had more of a problem w/ the execution actually, it was a bit reckless. Going three wide and in the wet, pretty crazy
What is he trying to prove though? It shouldn't be every man for himself. Not when you are in 6th spot in the driver's championship and your teammate is battling for first you know?

And yes, going 3 wide into turn 1 was baffling. I assure you he would have received death threats if that went horribly wrong
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      11-26-2012, 01:43 PM   #135
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Unfortunately that's webber. He race for his own.
And its a high risk place to him to do that.

Remember Silverstone last year? "Mark maintain your position"
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      11-26-2012, 02:24 PM   #136
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Same could be said with Jenson and Hamilton... Hamilton could have been 3rd overall if Jenson wasn't messing with him and fighting for the podium. But... that's racing... Kimi Got the 3rd spot and Hamilton is 4th again.
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      11-26-2012, 02:26 PM   #137
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To all the Vettel fan boys - yes, he's one of the best drivers out there, but the real hero of the last few seasons isn't him it's Adrian Newey. Put Newey on Ferrari and it's Alonso who keeps winning. Put him on McClaren and it's Hamilton (or Button). Red Bull could replace Vettel and still win. They could not replace Newey.
So why wasn't it Webber with the same car? The bottom line is that it's a team sport. That's why there is no prize money for the drivers championship, only the constructors. There are 5 world class drivers in the field - Kimi, Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel, and Button to some extent. At any point any one of them will have a slightly better car than the others or the car will be more reliable or the team will have a better strategy but at the end of the day, you need to have the right combination of all of these variables at the right time to capitalize. Newey is the best car designer but Ferrari and McLaren certainly has the resources to build an equally competitive car. It's a stretch to say that it's a one man show over there. There is no team in the paddock with as many advantages as Ferrari so I really don't see how anyone can give RBR a hard time with Ferrari as the victim...
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      11-26-2012, 02:34 PM   #138
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      11-26-2012, 03:31 PM   #139
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      11-26-2012, 07:49 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfJericho View Post
So why wasn't it Webber with the same car? The bottom line is that it's a team sport. That's why there is no prize money for the drivers championship, only the constructors. There are 5 world class drivers in the field - Kimi, Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel, and Button to some extent. At any point any one of them will have a slightly better car than the others or the car will be more reliable or the team will have a better strategy but at the end of the day, you need to have the right combination of all of these variables at the right time to capitalize. Newey is the best car designer but Ferrari and McLaren certainly has the resources to build an equally competitive car. It's a stretch to say that it's a one man show over there. There is no team in the paddock with as many advantages as Ferrari so I really don't see how anyone can give RBR a hard time with Ferrari as the victim...
Well put.
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      11-26-2012, 08:56 PM   #141
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Interesting stat, Alonso has missed out on being a 5x WDC by 8 points (counting 2008, 2010, and 2012).

If it weren't for him getting taken out in Spa and Japan he'd be champion right now, but what's done is done.
You're kidding right? Worst. logic. ever.

To quote Gary Anderson:

"Alonso did have some bad luck in crashing out in Japan and Belgium when it was not his fault. But Vettel had two alternator failures in races. OK, they are things the team have influence over but he still lost as many races as Alonso.

Equally, Red Bull allow their drivers to race early in the season, whereas Ferrari have a defined number one. If you take Red Bull and give Vettel their big points from every race, Vettel thrashes Alonso comprehensively."

Alonso lost the title long before Brazil. Vettel won out of sheer determination.
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      11-26-2012, 10:08 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by johanness View Post
You're kidding right? Worst. logic. ever.

To quote Gary Anderson:

"Alonso did have some bad luck in crashing out in Japan and Belgium when it was not his fault. But Vettel had two alternator failures in races. OK, they are things the team have influence over but he still lost as many races as Alonso.

Equally, Red Bull allow their drivers to race early in the season, whereas Ferrari have a defined number one. If you take Red Bull and give Vettel their big points from every race, Vettel thrashes Alonso comprehensively."

Alonso lost the title long before Brazil. Vettel won out of sheer determination.


Now think back, Ferrari and Alonso were playing the points game after they stop winning since German GP. They just simply not pushing hard enough for another win.
Either they simply didn't have the team and equipment to win, or they made similar mistake back in 2010. Hoping Webber and McLaren taking points off from Vettel.

Vettel's mind was simple, win all the races for rest of the season and he will win the championship. Determined driver and the team with the best equipment in hand. RBR never settle for points until the last 10 laps.
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      11-26-2012, 11:22 PM   #143
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WEB can leave RBR and i wouldnt miss him. He's driving a chassis of our lord Newey and should've helped VET period. Put RAI over at RBR I've always said, the both are young, world champs, friends on and off the track, it'd be killer.
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      11-26-2012, 11:32 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by EINSER M View Post
WEB can leave RBR and i wouldnt miss him. He's driving a chassis of our lord Newey and should've helped VET period. Put RAI over at RBR I've always said, the both are young, world champs, friends on and off the track, it'd be killer.
I wouldnt want RAI in a position to have to help Vettel if it came to it, not sure he wouldnt have tried to race instead of support.




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      11-26-2012, 11:50 PM   #145
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What a race. Lots of good luck/bad luck for everyone. The drive thru for Hulkenberg was ridiculous, but otherwise a great race.

Kudos to Vettel. He's damn good and will no doubt win more championships.
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      11-27-2012, 12:19 AM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingOfJericho View Post
So why wasn't it Webber with the same car?
Maybe at the beginning of the season, But it would be foolish to think they had the same car near the end of the season. No 2 engines are exactly alike, just as most parts can vary slightly. There will always be a 1 and 2. The 2 is still great in the case of RBR, but not the same.

And there is absolutely money in winning the driver championship. It's just not from the FIA, it's from all the sponsorship deals and promos you get. Not quite as cut and dry maybe, but definitely there is money to be made from it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EINSER M View Post
WEB can leave RBR and i wouldnt miss him. He's driving a chassis of our lord Newey and should've helped VET period. Put RAI over at RBR I've always said, the both are young, world champs, friends on and off the track, it'd be killer.
You think Raikkonen would play second fiddle to support Vettel's bid for world champion? Are you dreaming?

Webber is not a designated number 2. I don't understand why you would expect him to behave as such. He has no obligation to Vettel other than what the team may ask of him. It's ridiculous to think he would make it all the way into F1, race for years, and then just roll over and slave away for his teammate.
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      11-27-2012, 01:08 AM   #147
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I think among the grid, only Massa is willing to become a clear #2.
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      11-27-2012, 12:46 PM   #148
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i seriously loled at the thought of Kimi being Vettels #2, no f-ing way, he's an alpha. The only Beta in the pits is Massa, as e90slam said
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      11-27-2012, 06:31 PM   #149
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i seriously loled at the thought of Kimi being Vettels #2, no f-ing way, he's an alpha. The only Beta in the pits is Massa, as e90slam said
I like Massa, but I don't think he has the character to become a natural leader like Kimi, Alonso, Vettel, Hamilton, Schumi, and even Button.

In 2008, the team was surrounding him just because he happens to be in the championship winning position. But I can hardly see him building the team around him. I just can't really see him as a natural leader like Alonso did. Nonetheless, he is a decent driver.
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      11-28-2012, 12:00 AM   #150
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      11-28-2012, 06:22 PM   #151
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Formula 1: Ferrari consider Sebastian Vettel protest

Oh Dear....Ferrari please just stop....Season is over....

Quote:
Ferrari are "evaluating footage" that appears to show Red Bull's Sebastian Vettel making an illegal overtaking move in Sunday's Brazilian Grand Prix.

Fernando Alonso lost the title by three points to Vettel after finishing second for Ferrari and the German sixth.

Governing body the FIA refused to confirm whether it was investigating.
Red Bull could not be reached.

The footage, from Vettel's on-board camera, appears to show the German passing Toro Rosso's Jean-Eric Vergne in a yellow 'caution' zone.

If that is the case, and any protest was upheld, it could mean Vettel would have 20 seconds added to his total race time. That would demote him to eighth place and make Alonso world champion by one point.

Alonso has posted a cryptic message on the social networking site Twitter that appears to be a reference to the situation.

He wrote in Spanish: "I don't believe in miracles. I make my miracles out of the correct rules."

Alonso is believed to be pushing Ferrari to make an official protest to the FIA.
However, the governing body does not need a protest from Ferrari to investigate further. In fact, its own rules appear to oblige it to do so.

Article 179b of the international sporting code says: "If, in events forming part of an FIA championship, a new element is discovered, whether or not the stewards of the meeting have already given a ruling, these stewards of the meeting or, failing this, those designated by the FIA must meet… summoning the party or parties concerned to hear any relevant explanations and to judge in the light of the facts and elements brought before them."

It adds: "The period during which an appeal in review may be brought expires on 30 November of the year during which the decision that is liable to review has been handed down, if that decision is likely to have an effect on the result of a championship."

That appears to give the FIA until Friday to resolve the situation one way or another.

A yellow zone - indicated by yellow flags and flashing trackside yellow lights - indicates that drivers must proceed with caution and overtaking is strictly forbidden.

If a driver is caught overtaking in a yellow-flag zone, the punishment is either to drive through the pits at restricted speed if the race is still under way, or 20 seconds added to a driver's race time if the incident takes place close to the end of the race or is investigated after the race.

The footage in question was not shown on the main global 'world feed' during the race as it was showing repeats of the start at the time.

However, it has since emerged on the video sharing site YouTube after audience members recorded it from extra channels of in-car footage, which was broadcasting from Vettel's on-board camera at the time.

The video - broadcast on the BBC's in-car channel - is embedded at the top of this article.

Drivers are also alerted to caution zones by an indicator on their car's dashboard display as they pass through the relevant area.

If there is any discrepancy between a driver's dashboard and the trackside indicators, the flags and lights take precedence - the display is meant solely as a further driver aid.

The footage clearly shows Vettel passing a flashing yellow light in Turn Two and another at the exit of Turn Three, after which he overtakes Vergne down the straight, completing the move before reaching a flashing green light, indicating the end of the yellow zone, before Turn Four.

The yellow flag indicator in his cockpit is on the whole time.

The rules dictate that the 'yellow' zone ends only when the driver passes the first 'green' indicator.

However, on the footage from Vettel's car it is not possible to see clearly the marshals' post that is situated on the inside of the track at the exit of the pit lane - after the yellow light at Turn Three.

It is possible that the marshal there was waving a green flag. If he was, the pass on Vergne would be legal and the result would stand.

A green flag is waved at that post as Vettel passes the Marussia of Charles Pic on lap three, but it is not clear whether it was still being waved on lap four.

There are some videos on the Internet which seem to show a marshal waving a green flag at that post but it is not clear on the official TV footage.

The likelihood of any protest being lodged or of any action being taken depends on whether Ferrari or the FIA can establish whether there was a green flag waving at that marshals' post at that time.

If there was, the case will be closed and no further action will be taken. If there was not a green flag, it is highly likely that the case will go before the FIA Court of Appeal.

Under a strict interpretation of the rules, it would seem to have little option in that scenario to impose a penalty. But it may well feel it has to evaluate how much of an effect on the result of the race a drive-through penalty for Vettel at the time would have had.

BBC Sport asked the FIA:
- If the stewards of the Brazilian Grand Prix had investigated the incident in question during the race.
- If there was a green flag waved on lap four at the marshals' post on the inside of the track after the exit of Turn Three.
- If the FIA was now investigating the incident.
The FIA declined to comment.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20531638
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      11-28-2012, 07:05 PM   #152
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Skip to 9:32 to see the actual offending overtake.

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      11-28-2012, 07:09 PM   #153
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Then there's the marshal showing green flag which contradicts the LED yellow light.

Track marshal waved yellow when the first few passed then switch to green.
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      11-28-2012, 07:18 PM   #154
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Then there's the marshal showing green flag which contradicts the LED yellow light.

Track marshal waved yellow when the first few passed then switch to green.
Exactly.

Doesn't matter about SV's dash. "If there is any discrepancy between a driver's dashboard and the trackside indicators, the flags and lights take precedence - the display is meant solely as a further driver aid."

He'd never pull a bozo move like the one they're insinuating and was well aware of his surroundings.

Alonso can stop waiting for miracles
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