[ddk632]

Originally Posted by Joekerr

First - I'm not trying to push the 1950's ideas back into the mainstream - for reference, my wife works and I'm happy she does. I also know women who choose to be a housewife and they also are happy. To each their own, but I'm not pushing the idea that all women should only work in the kitchen.

I will take your word for it, but the post you made which I quoted really did lay out all of the things that 1950s ideals were based on. And another poster has picked up on it as well and called you out.

There's nothing wrong with wife working or not working, in and of itself. Your post had framed these things as hypothetical demands of an unreasonable man who wants someone to cook, clean, and take care of the kids while he can just cut loose at any given moment without the mythical "commitment" that only marriage can purportedly bring. I disagree vehemently with this notion. Commitment is personal; it doesn't need state enforcement.

You also mentioned that this hypothetical man would expect the woman to work since she could be dumped at any moment, and apparently for no other reason.

The truth is married or not, either person can leave at any moment. With marriage it's just much more messy to do it. Make no mistake, it is done all the time. On both sides. Men and women. Though statistically, it is women who initiate the vast majority of divorces... So the "man can cut loose at any time" argument is flawed, since it's the woman who tends to do the cutting loose that much more often. Especially when she has much to gain in terms of future financial support from a divorce.

Originally Posted by Joekerr

Rather, I'm saying that (and perhaps I'm simply very lucky - I actually know I am), my wife does a lot of little tasks around the house to make it a home, in spite of sometimes working 24+ hour shifts and otherwise working normal hours. And I don't. Or maybe that makes me a chauvinistic pig because I'm happy I don't have to deal with the bills / mail, cooking, etc. I'll of course help with chores - whatever she asks, I'll do - its not my expectation that she does everything.

But there are a lot of things that she takes on, probably without my knowledge. My guess is she'd ask herself why she is doing this if there isn't that commitment and the other's main concern in life is how can I best protect myself?

Hey that's great and I am happy for you. My point is that it's possible to have all these things without marriage.

Note, however, that this argument regarding a person's concern with self-preservation is a two sided argument.

One can say, the man (or higher income earner or higher asset holder, etc.) is concerned with protecting themselves by refusing to marry. On the other hand, one can also argue that the woman (or lower earner, person with less assets) wants marriage only to protect themselves in the event of an end to the relationship and gain financially from their time "invested" into the deal. Two sides of the same coin. Two perspectives. Both can be accurate and true depending on the situation.

Originally Posted by Joekerr

Also, I don't necessarily disagree with your statement that if you are considering a pre-nup then maybe you should reconsider whether you should get married. But that's not how I read your sentence - rather, you said "There is no good reason to get married..." and then went in to explain also that if you are getting a prenup, why get married in this case.

Ok, I also still stand by my statement that there is no good reason to get married. You still haven't named any, by the way, that qualify.

Originally Posted by Joekerr

I'm arguing that getting married is (or at least can be - to the right woman) a wonderful thing.

Yes, it can... And my argument is that one can have a wonderful thing just like it without the negative aspects associated with what it takes to dissolve a marriage in the United States.

Note I am referring to a contested dissolution of marriage; I know that there are people who are cordial and sit down over coffee and hash out their divorce. Then, they file it with the court and are on their merry separate ways. These people are like unicorns. Few and far between.